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In Ukraine, Cyber War With Russia Heating Up

timothy posted about 5 months ago | from the nothing-good-will-come-of-this dept.

Security 256

concertina226 writes "If you think the crisis in the Ukraine is limited just to being just on the ground, think again. A cyberwar is flaring up between Ukraine and Russia and it looks like just the beginning. On Friday, communication centers were hijacked by unknown men to install wireless equipment for monitoring the mobile phones of Ukraine parliament members. Since then, Ukrainian hackers have been defacing Russian news websites, while Russia's Roskomnadzor is blocking any IP addresses or groups on social media from showing pro-Ukraine 'extremist' content." Adds reader Daniel_Stuckey: "On the other side of the border, RT — the news channel formerly known as Russia Today and funded by the state — had its website hacked on Sunday morning, with the word 'Nazi' not-so-stealthily slipped into headlines. Highlights included 'Russian senators vote to use stabilizing Nazi forces on Ukrainian territory,' and 'Putin: Nazi citizens, troops threatened in Ukraine, need armed forces' protection.' RT was quick to notice the hack, and the wordplay only lasted about 20 minutes." Finally, as noted by judgecorp, "The Ukrainian security service has claimed that Russian forces in Crimea are attacking Ukraine's mobile networks and politicians' phones in particular. Meanwhile, pro-Russian hackers have defaced Ukrainian news sites, posting a list of forty web destinations where content has been replaced. The pro-Russians have demonstrated Godwin's Rule — their animated GIF equates the rest of Ukraine to Nazis."

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256 comments

extremist comparisons (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46398873)

Comparing to Nazis? Really?

Let's see,.. Russia "invades" (at the written, documented request of a democratically elected government), there are no deaths, no shots fired, the soldiers are welcomed into homes of common citizens, given hot meals and hot showers, and people are glad they are there.

Contrast: the USA invades Iraq on proven false charges, hundreds of thousands of people die, billions of dollars of infrastructure are destroyed, and the country will take generations to recover if it ever does.

And one of these groups are "Nazis"?

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Informative)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46398931)

Comparing to Nazis? Really?

Yes, really.

TFS got it wrong though, making the comparison to Godwin's law. This is a particularly offensive piece of propaganda that goes above and beyond mundane internet stupidity, given historical events (see: Great Patriotic War) and the particularly heavy price that Ukraine paid in WW2, likely worse than any European nation not called Poland.

Calling someone a Nazi is a special level of insult in the Slavic countries.

Re:extremist comparisons (3, Insightful)

JWW (79176) | about 5 months ago | (#46399073)

The comparison is apt.

Shortly after hosting an Olympic Games filled with nationalistic posing and bluster, the megalomaniacal leader of a dictatorship ordered his armed forces to invade a neighboring country for their "protection".

It is in fact a perfectly apt comparison of the situation as history repeating itself.

Re:extremist comparisons (2, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399211)

I was referring to the insults being directed Ukraine's way as being particularly offensive, not the other way around, though of course there are few worse things you can call a Russian than 'fascist'.

As far as the comparison, it's not all that apt. Russia in 2014 is a vastly different place than 1938's Germany, Putin is not Hitler, the Crimea is not the Sudetenland, and the other Great Powers have not signed off on his actions.

Re:extremist comparisons (2)

mlts (1038732) | about 5 months ago | (#46399671)

One other difference: The economy in Russia took a BIG punch to the face due to the offensive. The ruble and the Russian stock market paid dearly for this.

I do fear a remake of "The Guns of August", but these are different times. Back then, people thought economic interdependence would keep war from breaking out. I wonder if it will be the case today.

Re:extremist comparisons (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399943)

I thought it was more like...

Shortly after attending the Winter Olympic Games, Ukraine's illegitimate government deployed police and armed forces to corral and harass supporters of the ex-president.

Bit of a stretch to call the new government in Ukraine a bunch of Nazis but then you know how the Internet can be used to twist things around.

Re:extremist comparisons (1)

xfizik (3491039) | about 5 months ago | (#46400429)

I don't see any difference between an invasion started by "a megalomaniacal leader of a dictatorship" and one started by "a dyslexic leader of a democracy". Except the former is not an ultimate hypocrite. That and nobody has been killed as a result of the Russian "invasion" compared to you know what.

actually ... (1)

znrt (2424692) | about 5 months ago | (#46400101)

... a qualitatively signifficant (although maybe not quantitatively) part of protesters were indeed self declared fascist extremists, most of them openly nazi-sympathetic, so that's not a comparison at all, and it has nothing to do with godwin's rule. however unfortunate, it just reflects facts. check your sources.

Re:extremist comparisons (5, Informative)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399153)

Whatever the merits of claiming that government asked Russia for help, that government is no longer in power. The former president has been impeached as per Ukraine's constitution and the new government is within its rights to request foreign troops leave its sovereign territory.

Re:extremist comparisons (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399307)

Nope, he was not impeached per Ukraine's constitiution. He was "impeached" by the rule of the mob.

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399333)

There was a parliamentary vote to impeach him. At least by the English translation of Ukraine's constitution that I read, that's how it's done. Sure the lawmakers may have felt a lot of pressure to do so, but the forms were obeyed, even if in a ragged and somewhat bloody way.

Re: extremist comparisons (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399561)

It's easy to win votes when your opponents are prevented from voting. Same thing happened in Crimea after the Russkies invaded - they allowed their allies into the Crimean Parliament to vote to legalize the occupation.

It would be like armed thugs keeping Democrats away from Congress - would you accept Obama's impeachment as legitimate if only Republicans could vote?

Re: extremist comparisons (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399623)

What does the parliament in Crimea have to do with this? And as other posters have pointed out, Yanukovych was abandoned by members of his own party. The Parliament of Ukraine, as authorized by the Ukraine constitution, voted to remove Yanukovych from power. We can debate all day whether they felt forced by the protesters, but that is the facts. No one prevented Yanukovych's supporters in Ukraine's parliament from voting, so your whole point is false.

Get over it. The removal of Yanukovych was constitutional.

Re:extremist comparisons (-1, Flamebait)

s.petry (762400) | about 5 months ago | (#46400601)

The parliament was disbanded and replace by members of the mob, so you are still incorrect.

Crimea requested troops and protection from the "mob" that took over Kiev.

I get it, misinformation is the name of the game. All I can suggest is to gather information from every possible source and draw a line in the middle.

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Insightful)

Carewolf (581105) | about 5 months ago | (#46399489)

No, the parliament threw him out. The mob never did anything but protest and get shot at, until members of his own former party stopped supporting him, making room for a majority against him. The new government is as legally elected as the former! There was never any revolution, just protests, that triggered insane behavior from the president that let to him losing his parliamentarian basis.

Re:extremist comparisons (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399691)

Whatever the merits of claiming that government asked Russia for help, that government is no longer in power. The former president has been impeached as per Ukraine's constitution and the new government is within its rights to request foreign troops leave its sovereign territory.

Unfortunately that's completely irrelevant. He was voted on to be impeached, but all that means is he's summoned to trial; constitutionally he still retains all the powers granted the President. In the meantime, the French, German, and US ambassadors to Ukraine negotiated a deal with the opposition and Ukrainian Parliament that stripped Yanukovich of his power and gave it all to the Parliament, which is a direct violation of the Ukrainian Constitution; they are not allowed to do that. Now you have a situation where power is vested within the Parliament unconstitutionally via a deal negotiated by foreign powers, and correctly under the Constitution Yanukovich requested Russian military aid in restoring order. So arguably speaking it's the Parliament on the wrong side of the Constitution and the Russian intervention is legal via the Ukrainian Constitution.

Note I am not a Russian supporter, these are simply the convoluted facts of the situation.

Re:extremist comparisons (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399787)

From what I understand, the impeachment vote vacated the presidency, with new elections in May. I'm no expert on Ukraine's constitution, but what I read suggests Parliament was within its rights. Furthermore, Yanukovich pulled a James II and fled into Russia hands, thus effectively vacating his position.

Re:extremist comparisons (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400259)

That is not correct. Impeachment is solely the official accusation of crimes directed at the official. It only strips powers when he is removed from office, which can only happen during a trial and decision made by the Constitutional Court.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2010

See Article 108 and 111; 108 says the powers go away "once removed via the process of impeachment", and 111 says that removal only occurs once the Court has made a decision, not during the vote of impeachment. Thus he retains his powers and responsibilities, meaning the Parliament has acted Unconstitutionally.

Notably this is also true of the 2004 Constitution, whcih they have reverted back to; that revokation of the 2010 is also unconstitutional as the President is required to sign his approval of this, which he has not.

Again, I'm a US Person; I generally favor a pro-Western Ukraine, but unfortunately the way this is going more and more the Western side and the protestors are on the wrong side of the law.

Re:extremist comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400405)

"correctly under the Constitution Yanukovich requested Russian military aid in restoring order"

Only parliament could do that according to their consitution.

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | about 5 months ago | (#46399887)

And even more, even if Janukovych were the ruling president, he would not have the right to request foreign troops, as that prerogative belongs only to the Supreme Council. But hey, Russia never cared much about validity of their excuses for invasion. And remember: they used the very same excuse on 1939-09-17 when invading Poland.

Re:extremist comparisons (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400303)

> Whatever the merits
OK, so you've decided something and facts don't matter.

Truth is, all this "sovereignty" and "legal" malarchy really just hides the fact that might makes right. The new government may or may not be legitimately democratic, may have been supported or catalysed by foreign powers with vested interested, and may end up being legal with respect to it declaring itself so in arrears.

But it wouldn't automatically get any right to inherit regions which are already semiautonomous. A breakup of the US Federal Government would likely result in states making their way into different blocks. Wouldn't it?

Oh, you're presupposing a fixed outcome you've decided? Why is that?

Re:extremist comparisons (5, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46400465)

I think you misunderstand me. Frankly I think Russia's annexation of Crimea is a fait accompli, and I think the EU and the US knew it all along. They're gamble, I suspect, is that Crimea will be sufficient coin to buy Russia's acquiescence to the rest of Ukraine moving westward (so to speak). It strikes me that that is Russia's view as well, as it seems to have contented itself with putting Russian forces in a position to negate any real action by Ukraine military forces.

In other words, I'm not blind to real politik. At the same time, territorial integrity has been a rather large theme in the international sphere since the Allied Powers agreed to the creation of the United Nations during WWII. Sure, it hasn't been uniformly applied; there have been effective secessions, civil wars and the like, but in general, the idea of military forces entering a region of a sovereign state and annexing it has been viewed as a breach of international peace. In the case of Crimea, Russia was a signatory to an agreement guaranteeing Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine giving up the nuclear arsenal that it had inherited after the collapse of the USSR, so I think it's pretty firm that the occupation of Crimea and the clear intent to annex it into the Russian Federation breaks international law on a number of counts.

But, as I said, I think it's a fait accompli, and I think the end of this story was written weeks, if not months ago. Russia will agree to restrict itself to "protecting" Crimea. There will be a referendum in Crimea that will inevitably lead to Crimea either being annexed proper into Russia, or being given a sufficiently strong autonomous status that Ukraine will permanently lose it. The forms of diplomacy have to be obeyed, so Western leaders and foreign ministers will wring their hands and cry foul, even though everyone knew how this would end.

Re:extremist comparisons (1)

Carewolf (581105) | about 5 months ago | (#46400605)

I don't annexation is necessarily guaranteed. If enough pressure it put, the question will be put to vote, and with only a small majoriy of Russian speakers in Crimea, it is stastically implausible they would ever have a full majority to join the Russian federation. It would only take 10% of the russian speakers to consider themselves russian-speaking ukrainians or simply prefer a less corrupt government (the recent protests were also support by many russian speaking ukrainians).

Re:extremist comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399233)

Yes, obviously they're being welcomed into the homes of citizens en masse, while the citizens are out in the streets angrily protesting the Russian presence.
RIP, Logic.

Re:extremist comparisons (5, Insightful)

Nidi62 (1525137) | about 5 months ago | (#46399281)

Read up on this little thing called Anschluss that took place prior to the start of World War II. Nazi Germany essentially annexed by force (rigged plebescite backed by threat of force) Austria, and took over the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia under the guise of "protecting" and "liberating" it's German-speaking citizens. It should be ironic to anyone with a knowledge of history that Russia is embarking on a course very similar to one that ultimately led to the deaths of millions of Russian citizens (and Ukrainian citizens as well).

There is also the fact that the troops Russia sent in were all wearing masks, had no identifying insignia of any kind on their uniforms, and appear to be well equipped and highly trained. To me, it seems that Putin has likely taken the ouster of his lapdog and the loss of a potential client state personal. He has also quickly eroded any international goodwill Russia might have obtained by taking in Snowden, as well as potentially set a dangerous precident by saying Russia has a right and duty to protect the Russian-speaking people in the Crimea. Can Germany now do the same thing? How about the US? Does Iran now have the right to invade the US to protect Persian-speaking people? Putin is playing a dangerous game, and he is really exhibiting a lot of the characteristics Hitler and even Stalin did, including the cult of personality over the last few years.

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Informative)

ericloewe (2129490) | about 5 months ago | (#46399609)

I'm not sure anybody was ever fooled by the "local militiamen" who just happened to organize themselves into a cohesive force and acquire uniforms and decent military equipment in less than half a week. It was immediately obvious that they were russian soldiers - the "real" local militiamen (as in, truly a militia) look like your average hastily put together group without uniforms.

The fact alone that those soldiers are unidentified makes it a war crime (As stated in the Geneva Conventions). If this ever gets to trial (ha!) and is considered war, we already have a war crime before a single shot was fired.

Re:extremist comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400329)

Yep. I'm sure it will be the next case prosecuted after Blair.

Goodwill about taking in Snowden?? (1)

cbraescu1 (180267) | about 5 months ago | (#46400047)

any international goodwill Russia might have obtained by taking in Snowden

I'm not aware of any mainstream, non-fringe government expressing goodwill towards Russia about taking in Snowden. Please feel free to prove me wrong, I'm not trolling.

Re:extremist comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399551)

Comparing to Nazis? Really?

Let's see,.. Russia "invades" (at the written, documented request of a democratically elected government), there are no deaths, no shots fired, the soldiers are welcomed into homes of common citizens, given hot meals and hot showers, and people are glad they are there.

Contrast: the USA invades Iraq on proven false charges, hundreds of thousands of people die, billions of dollars of infrastructure are destroyed, and the country will take generations to recover if it ever does.

You said what people don't want to hear, so you got modded down.

Snowden made it clear the US government shills in message forums and tries to bias the debate to their direction. You dared to show the hypocrisy of the US, so you must be silenced.

Re:extremist comparisons (4, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399755)

By the same token, justifying one dubious or illegal act by bringing up another strikes me as a pretty flawed argument. That the US invaded Iraq in 2003 doesn't mean Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 is appropriate.

This is exactly the tit-for-tat Great Power games that lead to WWI... The US, I think, has come to deeply regret the Iraq invasion, which happened a decade ago under an entirely different Administration.

If only nations as pure as the driven snow could call out infamous acts by other nations, there would be virtually no one to complain.

Re:extremist comparisons (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | about 5 months ago | (#46399847)

Fox News is always playing the NAZI card. It makes one wonder about Fox News?

Re:extremist comparisons (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400287)

>(at the written, documented request of a democratically elected government)

You mean president, who couldn't do that legally even it he would actually still be accepted as a president. Only their parliament could ask some other country for military help.

Mobile phones used as tracking devices?? Paranoia! (0)

Catbeller (118204) | about 5 months ago | (#46398973)

Mobile phones will never be used as tracking devices - mandatory GPS tracking is for emergency locations services, as we all know, and users can shut it off with a menu option.

Governments listening in on our communications? Only bad people have to worry about that - what have you got to hide? Paranoid conspiracy theorizing partisans, who think they are so important that governments and cops would care about them. And they don't understand that we are at war against Terror, so governments listen in because Terror.

And parties other than government would never, ever have access to the same tech to track down and harrass, imprison or kill people who piss them off.

Everything is Awesome! And bad things will never happen to us in Technotopia Legoland.

I am, of course, indulging in the darkest of sarcasm. I've been slapping people in the face with the fish of the surveillance capabilities built into our phones by government and corporate fiat for over thirteen years. Let's see what happens now, when a new agent comes in who hijacks the entire scenario for their own ends - wiping out political opposition to their invasion.

I expect never to have to argue the point ever again. Cell phone tracking/recording - BAD BAD BAD. Are we agreed? Okay? Am I finally done?

Re:Mobile phones used as tracking devices?? Parano (2, Informative)

Catbeller (118204) | about 5 months ago | (#46399217)

And yes, the US did take control of cell networks to track phones and calls in Afghanistan and Iraq to find and eliminate those who fought the US invasions of those countries. But no one in the US cares very much, so it's hard to raise the issue. But we done did it first, sure. The US doesn't have much moral authority left after Afghanistan and Iraq. We're intellectually bankrupt, as Secretary of State Kerry so ably - and without irony - showed the other day when he told the world that invasion under false pretext is wrong.

But, we fight the fight in front of us, and can't restart the lost battles. Phone surveillance bad. Invading countries under false pretext to cover up not-so secret national interest is bad. Russia - RUSSIA BAD. They don't get a pass 'cause Americans can be the same flavor of assholes. Onward.

Re:Mobile phones used as tracking devices?? Parano (3, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399515)

And yes, the US did take control of cell networks to track phones and calls in Afghanistan and Iraq to find and eliminate those who fought the US invasions of those countries

Afghanistan had a cellular network in 2001?

It's debatable that the United States invaded Afghanistan. We were invited there by what used to be called the Northern Alliance, a group that was the near-universally recognized government (held the UN seat, was recognized by everyone except Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Pakistan) of the country. Even if you want to call it an invasion it was certainly a justified one, given that the de-facto Government had provided refuge to a group that murdered nearly 3,000 American citizens.

We've made a lot of mistakes there, trying to build a modern Democracy in a country with a literacy rate in the 20-30% range heads the list, but I do wish people would stop conflating Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re:Mobile phones used as tracking devices?? Parano (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399903)

A very good point. A lot of the debate over Afghanistan was over de jure vs. de facto governments. At the end of the day, only two or three countries in the world recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan.

Re:Mobile phones used as tracking devices?? Parano (1)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46400419)

There were exactly three, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates, not Yemen as I said in the previous post. Saudi Arabia and the UAE withdrew their recognition after 9/11.

I can't help but laugh a little (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46398997)

Both sides are relentlessly comparing each other to Nazi Germany. The Russians claim that Nazi-like fascist radicals led the coup and the Ukrainians claim that the Russians are behaving like Nazi Germany at the outset of World War II. It's like a bad internet argument.

They still have armies in the Ukraine (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399001)

Pro-Russian commenters (1, Insightful)

cold fjord (826450) | about 5 months ago | (#46399089)

There have been plenty of pro-Russian commenters on Slashdot over the last couple of days defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I expect that will continue.

It makes for an interesting change in the tone of discussions. Many of the first to cry "imperialism" or some such when the US does anything don't seem to be kicking up much of a fuss. The new would-be overlords of Ukraine seem to be meeting with either approval or acquiesce.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399231)

The astroturfing is painfully obvious, it is like they have a script to work off of.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399239)

By overlords you mean the mob in Kiev? BTW What Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (3, Interesting)

cold fjord (826450) | about 5 months ago | (#46399513)

The "overlords" are the Russians. Crimea is Ukrainian territory. The Russians have invaded Crimea, which means they have invaded Ukraine. It similar to having invaded Germany if you invade Bavaria.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399721)

Crimea is the Autonomous Republic of Crimea with its own constituion really and it was incorporated into the Ukrainian SSR by the communist Ukrainian clown Khrushchev in 1954. Yes, Russians (about 60% of population) invaded Crimea the same way as the British "invaded" Gibraltar or Maledives... err wait... Falklands.
OTOH Kosovo was part of Serbia hundreds of years and was stolen from her in 1999.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399963)

Kosovo stolen??? Only after the Serbs made it very clear they had every intention of killing or driving out every ethnic Albanian in the place. Kosovo wasn't stolen, it was granted independence by NATO because Serbia was on the brink of wiping out every non-Serbian it could find.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400351)

You were fooled by unbelievable primitive propaganda and lies by Wesley Clarke and similar clowns. Probably you even can't read in Serbian ( or Croatian or Slovenian) to hear the other side.
Was ruthless bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 (including bombing of TV station - NATO started to lose propaganda war) a violation of Yugoslavia "sovereignty and territorial integrity" or not?

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400339)

By overlords you mean the mob in Kiev? BTW What Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Your wasting your time nobody is seeing your messages. Not many browse at -1 or 0 and those that do have zero chance of buying what your selling.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399331)

while in the US Army i paid a visit to the Ukraine in 1999
worthless country, mostly racist people
same with russia

point is that its a european problem and the european NATO countries alont with the former warsaw pact should be the ones mobilizing a million men to fight russia if its such a threat. not the USA

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399391)

There have been plenty of pro-Russian commenters on Slashdot over the last couple of days defending the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Russia has online sockpuppets to push her agenda. No news there. You'll see some of the same apologists chiming in whenever there's a discussion about Tibet.

There's no real defense for Russia's actions. Of course, the United States and/or EU aren't about to go to war with a nuclear weapons state over Ukraine. Sucks if you're the Ukrainians, realpolitik is a bitch sometimes isn't it?

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

ericloewe (2129490) | about 5 months ago | (#46399661)

I'm sure that, if the Ukrainians agree, a token military presence by the US/EU/NATO/whoever they don't want to piss off would most certainly force them to back down.
Getting them to move back into Russia is a little trickier if they don't feel like moving - they might feel inclined to call the bluff.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399823)

The EU doesn't have a military and even NATO is a shadow of what it once was. Besides, it's all a moot point, the nations that make up NATO and the EU are democracies. Do you think you'll find popular opinion in support of taking on a country with 8,000 nuclear weapons over the Crimea or even Ukraine proper?

More lies and propaganda from you, no shock here. (1, Flamebait)

s.petry (762400) | about 5 months ago | (#46399557)

I have not seen very man pro Russian comments. I have seen people questioning the US hypocrisy, and questioning how "natural" this revolution is. Obviously you are trying to espouse the "if you are not with us you must be the enemy" rhetoric, which is absolutely false.

It is a well known fact that the US Government spent our tax dollars on the Orange revolution. It did not end up with the Ukraine throwing Russia away as they hoped, and the Ukraine didn't jump into debt with the EU as the west hoped. So now, we have another revolt which even according to Faux News was due to the Ukraine voting not to join the EU. It had nothing to do with the alleged crimes of the Ukraine president until days after the "peaceful uprising" started. (Quoted because every source except for US media shows the protesters armed, throwing gas bombs at police. Compare the police tolerance of protesters in the Ukraine with the police tolerance at a real peaceful protest in the US for a taste of hypocrisy.)

If you want to complain about the excesses of the Ukraine president, again you are a hypocrite. The US president is no better than him, and quite possibly worse. I'm not sure this guy was sending his family on multimillion dollar vacations several times a year. It's not like the US has no issues regarding money and poverty. The White House has more valuables than this guy had in his presidential palace, but of course the US does not call it's presidential building a palace so it has to be better right?. Don't answer that, that is a rhetorical question only.

If you read anything other than US release propaganda you should start to question what the US Government is doing and what the motives are. You should question whether the revolt was truly natural.

Questioning the morality of the USA foreign policies and actions is a logical and responsible path for a US Citizen to take. That does not make a person pro-foreign anything. It makes them a pro-American!

You don't notice the "so what, USA did it" posts? (1)

poity (465672) | about 5 months ago | (#46399669)

It happens every single time another country is in the negative spotlight.
They speak as if USA invented meddling.

You'd be hard-pressed to find these so-what-if-x-does-it-y-did-it-too arguments back in 2002 and 2003. I don't believe any of these people brought up Soviet/British invasion of Afghanistan to dismiss criticism of the US, so the only conclusion one can draw is that they are not actually concerned with morality, just with who is violating the morality.

Re:You don't notice the "so what, USA did it" post (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 5 months ago | (#46400541)

Correct. The difference between now and then is that the US Government employs shitheads like the person I responded to for furtherance of their agenda. Based on their post topics/subjects/points and time (frequency), I believe that this person has an 8 hour a day job at a government office spreading this type of propaganda and bullshit.

Re:More lies and propaganda from you, no shock her (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 5 months ago | (#46399877)

The US president is actually, for the duties he performs, paid a pretty small amount. The President currently makes $400,000 a year (a helluva lot less than the CEO of many major US corporations). Yes, he lives in a mansion and has the use of a number of vacation and recreational areas like Camp David, but these all belong to the people of the United States and upon the end of his term, the President will receive no benefit from them. A President's personal wealth comes from his activities prior to and after his time in office; which is why Bill Clinton has made a career out of speaking engagements.

I can think of no example, even among the more corrupt US Presidents, of the level of self-aggrandizement and enrichment that has been seen with Yanukovich. The situations are not comparable to my mind.

Re:More lies and propaganda from you, no shock her (1)

s.petry (762400) | about 5 months ago | (#46400499)

The president is paid 400,000 in cash but has -0- expenses. Why don't you add in all of the tax payer funded junkets and vacations, clothing, transportation (which is not just for business), and food? Add in his speaking engagement revenue, book revenue, and campaign fundraisers. In fact in 2011 Obama spent 1.4 BILLION (yes, that is with a B) on travel expenses [mcall.com] .

I get it! Western leaders hide how much they make better than those in other countries. It makes them better liars, not better for their populace. Worse is that idiots believe the hand waiving while refusing to look at facts.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399641)

I have noticed both pro and anti Russia comments in virtually every site I frequent that allows commenting. And likewise, there's always some knucklehead who cries about "astroturfing" or some other conspiracy theory where, allegedly, the posters who shared an opposing opinion are paid shills and agents of the KGB, hired by Vladimir Putin himself.

Quite tiring, really. The situation in Ukraine isn't as simple as you made it out to be in your little mind. People will have different opinions and views. It doesn't mean they're hired. Unless you have direct proof otherwise, kindly fucker off.

This isn't the 50's and you're not Joseph McCarthy. I don't want to scroll through your bullshit already. Give it a rest.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400021)

It isn't the 1950s, Russia's invasion can be discussed, and you aren't Joseph Stalin. People can post opinions here that you disagree with. Get over it.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

ficuscr (1585141) | about 5 months ago | (#46399733)

I play the game EVE online which has a large population of Russian speaking players. This has let me participate in a number of conversations with individuals living in Russia and the Ukraine. I don't think I would otherwise have had this opportunity. It has been fascinating to hear peoples perspectives. I just found this interesting.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (1)

timeOday (582209) | about 5 months ago | (#46400383)

Well, the discussion has to start with the fact that the invasion was prompted by a coup by pro-Western Ukrainians a week earlier. Can we just be honest about that that?

No, I am not claiming the election of the deposed Russian-aligned President was free and fair in the first place - I have no idea. But there is no question that the majority of people in Crimea consider themselves Russian and favored their elected President rather than the revolutionaries.

Re:Pro-Russian commenters (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400519)

No, I am not claiming the election of the deposed Russian-aligned President was free and fair in the first place - I have no idea


Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said there were no indications of serious fraud and described the vote as an "impressive display" of democracy. "For everyone in Ukraine this election was a victory," João Soares, president of the OSCE's parliamentary assembly, said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-president-election [theguardian.com]

A little background (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399095)

This is what modern warfare looks like.

In 2004, Russia was starting to regain it's footing after a disasterous 90's, when the Orange Revolution happen in Ukraine, installing an anti-Russian, pro-Western government. Russia saw this as an attempt to deal a knockout blow to Russia once and for all, as the border between Russia and Ukraine is wide open with no natural barriers and a significant portion of Russia's food comes from Ukraine. In 6 years they got that government thrown out and Yanukovych installed as President, a highly pro-Russian president. He attempts to steer Ukraine away from the European Union, causing protests in the Western half of Ukraine (which is very pro-West). Those protests gain significant strength in short order, with protesters willing to engage police with violence (molotov cocktails and bats, facing down tear gas etc.)

Russia perceives this as support from Western powers to these groups, attempting to strip away Ukraine. As a result, they take over the Crimean Peninsula, where the Russian Black Fleet is located and a significant pro-Russian populace lives. This is a message as a show of force to the entirety of Eastern Europe. Obama just declared the Russian intervention to be illegal. So what? Who's going to challenge him? Is the US going to go to war over the Crimean peninsula, when a large part of the population welcomes the Russian intervention and the US population as no appetite for war? Is Europe going to put in place economic sanctions on Russia when Russia supplies nearly 1/3rd of European energy? Does any other power such as Japan or China give a rats ass?

This is Putin daring anyone to stop him, and no one will. It's a show of force to everyone from Switzerland to Poland to Romania to Moldova to Serbia to everyone in the Caucasus, to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and all the rest: the big dog in the region is Russia and no one's coming to help them.

Defacing some websites and such is just part of the show, and is probably the nature of things to come. But the real issue is this: Russia is in charge now of the entire ex-Soviet Union area.

Not Quite (5, Insightful)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399291)

Russia is in charge now of the entire ex-Soviet Union area.

Not quite. NATO isn't likely to roll over and accept aggression directed at Poland or the Baltic States (boy, I bet they're happy they got admitted now) and I suspect even the EU would grow a spine if Russia started pushing Finland around.

Re:Not Quite (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399803)

I am Polish and conservative and I am not happy to be part of that hypocritic military bully called NATO. Neither I am happy, like many British conservatives, to be part of EU.

Re:A little background (1)

loonycyborg (1262242) | about 5 months ago | (#46399311)

Defacing websites isn't war. It's a joke. Nobody in his right mind would hold anything of remotely strategic value accessible from internet and attackable. Only official websites can be targeted which is a waste of time strategically.

Re:A little background (1)

TheCarp (96830) | about 5 months ago | (#46399375)

Yes but when you look at what people really want, war is a waste of time strategically too. Reducing war to a bunch of symbolic actions that give you an excuse to keep people on payroll and make some noise now and again really fills most of the real objectives of war anyway...or....does at least as good as real war but without all the mess.

The quicker you can get back to business as usual economic activity the bigger the win for everyone. The less disruption to that on both sides, the bigger the win for everyone....and if you can use it to justify some more military spending and keep those jobs well.... then all objectives are met.

Re:A little background (1)

Shakrai (717556) | about 5 months ago | (#46399413)

Propaganda is war. Steering the online discussion is the 21st Century version of the Vietnamese using American students to place pressure on the United States Government.

Re:A little background (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about 5 months ago | (#46400055)

Propaganda is war.

Oh please! Stop! You sound like you're making excuses to go around bombing TV broadcast stations and newspaper offices.

Re:A little background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399505)

Uhh, yeah, defacing public websites on their own isn't war. But when it's done in the context of a military invasion of sovereign territory, then it's an aspect of war certainly. Read the news bud, Russian troops took over the Crimean Peninsula a few days ago.

Re:A little background (1)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about 5 months ago | (#46399629)

Except for the Russian people who elected Putin because of the problems in Chechnya.
I'm sure they are thrilled with Putin creating similar problems with the Ukraine.
Especially when Russian websites drive the point home.

Re:A little background (2)

KiloByte (825081) | about 5 months ago | (#46399925)

Problems that were staged by Putin's own special forces. Litvinenko is a hero of Snowden's calibre, yet somehow data he brought up isn't widely known.

Re:A little background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399371)

A significant populace exported to the Crimea by Russians during the Soviet Union.

Maybe they should have been deported and the Crimean Tartars returned.

Or is that too much to ask?

Re:A little background (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399921)

Yep, let use ethnic cleansing!
Dze Jugashvili was Georgian if you didn't know and he believed in communism, not in Russian nationalism.

Re:A little background (1)

loonycyborg (1262242) | about 5 months ago | (#46399967)

And at the time of Russian Empire too! In fact russians, ukrainians and tatars all are invaders there.

Re:A little background (1)

Gavagai80 (1275204) | about 5 months ago | (#46399771)

In 6 years they got that government thrown out and Yanukovych installed as President, a highly pro-Russian president.

Where "overthrown" means democratically elected in a fair election.

You also missed the point that Russia only intervened after the elected president was removed unconstitutionally.

A little perspective please... (1)

scottnix (951749) | about 5 months ago | (#46399127)

I love technology. I'd like nothing more than to spend all my time on my computer. That being said, I think it's pointless and more than a little tasteless to focus on hacked websites and downed mobile phones when people are literally dying in the streets.

Why not talk about the origins of the crisis? Last I checked, getting really deep into politics and history is nerdy too.

Re:A little perspective please... (1)

MozeeToby (1163751) | about 5 months ago | (#46399525)

At the moment no one is dying in the streets in fact. Whatever the legality of Russia's actions there have not been any shots fired between Russian and Ukrainian forces. Well, ok, I think I read one story about warning shots being fired, but no one is being shot at this time. The cyber antics are part of a larger picture, on the one hand Russia bunkering up on the Crimean peninsula, consolidating their hold on infrastructure and communications. On the other, a disorganized (and presumably grass roots) hacking effort that looks more like the actions of Anonymous than the Ukrainian government (and probably is).

It's time for Vitali to take over (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399159)

Vitali Klitschko needs to name himself President for Life and beat down the Russkie menace with his bare hands.

)biznatch (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399199)

to underscore part of GNAA if the r4in..we can be bloodfarts. FreeBSD Notwithstanding, If you have all know we want. BSDI is also dead, Slashdot's The Cathedral At this point faster chip what provides the Endless conflict get how people can bloc in order to share. FreeBSD is bad for *BSD. As previously thought FreeBSD at about 80 that sorded, fucking market *BSD but FreeBSD fate. Let's not be the longest or ballots. You could both believed that this exploitation, name on the jar of dead. It is a dead so there are people

Re:)biznatch (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399417)

Anecdotal memories was beholden to greatest, Generational things of consolation. Write home about this;;

Memories (1)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | about 5 months ago | (#46399221)

This is beginning to remind me of the annexation of Czechoslovakia, let's hope this time around the Western powers will have enough spine to stand up to the dictator in stead of encouraging him with appeasement. We are gettign to the point where threatenign to move a few NATO divisions to the Urainian border would seem appropriate, at least that was the only thing that seemed to work on Hitler.

Re:Memories (1)

Etherwalk (681268) | about 5 months ago | (#46399309)

This is beginning to remind me of the annexation of Czechoslovakia, let's hope this time around the Western powers will have enough spine to stand up to the dictator in stead of encouraging him with appeasement. We are gettign to the point where threatenign to move a few NATO divisions to the Urainian border would seem appropriate, at least that was the only thing that seemed to work on Hitler.

We moved F-22s and submarines carrying hundreds of nuclear warheads toward the conflict area.

Re:Memories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399523)

This is beginning to remind me of the annexation of Kosovo, let's hope this time around the modern powers will have enough spine to stand up to the mob in stead of encouraging it with appeasement.

Re:Memories (1)

Chris Mattern (191822) | about 5 months ago | (#46399667)

"Annexation" of Kosovo? Tell me, what country is Kosovo now a part of? The only country I'm aware of that doesn't recognize Kosovo's independence is Serbia, and that's because they claim Kosovo is still a part of *them*.

Re:Memories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400157)

And was Autonomous Republic of Crimea annected by anyone? They want to vote on their status like Kosovo did (democracy at work). The British used the same excuse to explain their power over Falklands and Gibraltar.
Do you know that during the draw of Euro 2016 soccer qualifiers Gibraltar was moved because of political reasons into a new qualifying group after its team was drawn against Spain?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/10656522/Gibraltar-moves-group-in-Euro-2016-qualifiers-draw-over-political-tensions.html [telegraph.co.uk]

Re:Memories (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399929)

The difference is that while the Republicans at that time were mostly neutral, the Republicans now are pushing for Russia to invade. They want war to increase the value of the stocks they own. They know a war with Russia will make them very wealthy so that is why we're seeing constant prodding from the Republicans. Obama hasn't yet taken a stand against them. Expect him to take swift and drastic measures when he does. Of course, that is if he is able to before the Republicans start a war.

It's funny how the US media is ignoring the efforts of the Republicans to start the war. In Ukraine, nearly 80% of the people polled correctly recognized that is was the Republicans that created this situation.

Godwin's Rule (1)

HtR (240250) | about 5 months ago | (#46399547)

Although it appears (from TFS) that both sides are referring to the other as Nazis, I'm not sure Godwin's Rule applies when you're actually talking about armed conflict. Hopefully the diplomats that actually represent the respective governments can rise above this and avoid (further) loss of life, but I'm getting less and less hopeful.

Ukranian hackers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399627)

Yeah yeah... Ukranian hackers. I doubt it.

Reagan, John Paul II, and Putin's bitch. (0)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about 5 months ago | (#46399677)

In the 80s Reagan and Pope John Paul II tagged teamed to tear down the Berlin wall.
Now it looks like Putin's bitch is going to help Putin put it back up.

The irony (1)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about 5 months ago | (#46399813)

Does any seee the orony in the Ukranians using Molotov cocktails?

Re:The irony (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399917)

Invented by Finland under The Winter War

Putin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46399817)

Putin is a fascist!

Sounds like an opportunity (1)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about 5 months ago | (#46399973)

Maybe Radio Shack can open up a few stores and become profitable again.

Re:Sounds like an opportunity (1)

ThatsDrDangerToYou (3480047) | about 5 months ago | (#46400403)

Maybe Radio Shack can open up a few stores and become profitable again.

In Ukraine, we now call it Anarchist Shack.

Going back to 1991 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400167)

I have a question to the Russian and Ukrainian readers.

I find it curious that this type of tension between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians is only flaring up now. If we go back to 1991, the situation must have been a lot scarier for the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. The Soviet Union was being dissolved and they were now literally on the wrong side of the border - i.e., living in a newly idependent country called Ukraine. Therefore, if anything, I would have expected any tension between the two groups to have flared up in 1991. Why only now we are seeing tensions between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians.

One could argue that perhaps there is no such thing as ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. The two languages are nearly identical and the two people share so much historically and culturally. The two groups are probably nearly indistinguishable.

US Next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400293)

When US and european nations apply sanctions on Russia, could that escalate to world cyberwar 1?

Defacing sites lol (1)

JockTroll (996521) | about 5 months ago | (#46400335)

Oh yeah, go ahead. Deface some Russian site. That's really going to scare the Kremlin, isn't it... No! What's going to happen is that those loserboys will have their skulls bashed wide open against their little monitors, their keyboards shoved up their asses, their throats slit open and their faces shat upon by Spetznaz commandos on their way to lunch. A lesson to wannabe "warriors" and "rebels" worldwide: your puny computers are no match for guns and artillery. Either learn to fight properly and get possibly ripped apart in the process, or shut up and leave serious business to serious people. Is that fucking clear?

Putin was Spanked by Global Markets (2)

ThatsDrDangerToYou (3480047) | about 5 months ago | (#46400461)

One news site mentioned that Putin has "pressed the pause button" on his invasion of Crimea. What is happening now is that the pressure of the oligarchs, watching the ruble and the Russian market take a dive, are putting pressure on him to back off.

I predict that threats of economic sanctions and actual real-time market forces will bring this to a resolution in about a month.
(Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.)

Anyone?

I want to be a Nazi! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400503)

They are so popular and their uniforms look so cool. I think they are just a bit misunderstood.

Good for the Russians! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#46400569)

Any plans the Cia States of America had will backfire this time :)

hahahahaahahaha

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