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Large Corporations Displacing Aging IT Workers With H-1B Visa Workers

Soulskill posted about 2 years ago | from the looking-out-for-number-one dept.

Businesses 617

New submitter genericmk writes "NPR is running an interesting story about the unfortunate status of the aging programmers in the IT industry. Older IT workers are opposing the H-1B visa overhaul. Large corporations want more visa, they claim, because of a shortage of IT talent. However, these companies are actively avoiding older, more experienced workers, and are bringing in large volumes of foreign staff. The younger, foreign workers are often easier to control, and they demand lower wages; indentured servitude is replacing higher cost labor."

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the South has risen again (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950087)

importing docile labor, the american way !

Greedy Upper Management. (5, Interesting)

Serpent6877 (1021937) | about 2 years ago | (#42950111)

You have to be able to afford pricey CEO's, CTO's, and any of the C's. To do this you have to compensate by replacing a higher paid employee that know what he is doing with one that half ass knows what he is doing but makes the books like nicer. You can see here (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/05/03/475952/ceo-pay-faster-worker-pay/?mobile=nc) that companies have spiraled out of control. Heck look at AIG, General motors bonuses paid out when we the tax payers were paying their salaries.

"Shortage" (5, Insightful)

v1 (525388) | about 2 years ago | (#42950119)

"Large corporations want more visa, they claim, because of a shortage of dirt cheap IT talent"

There, ftfy

And they (the workers) demand lower wages... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950125)


52 years old.... (5, Insightful)

edmanet (1790914) | about 2 years ago | (#42950133)

And I really thought I'd be in management by now. But I really hate meetings.

"Free" Trade, What Did You Expect? (4, Insightful)

CanHasDIY (1672858) | about 2 years ago | (#42950153)

What, you thought only the manufacturing base could outsource? Think again.

New slogan (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950157)

Out with off-shoring, in with on-shoring.

Management is getting old and slow (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950167)

And they think the same thing is true of programmers.

Is programming talent perishable? I think so -- at least for many programmers. Maybe it's just me.

Anyone else feel as though they aren't as mentally quick as they used to be?

And does it color your perception of other older programmers?

Greedy Upper Management (-1, Redundant)

Serpent6877 (1021937) | about 2 years ago | (#42950171)

You have to be able to afford pricey CEO's, CTO's, and any of the C's. To do this you have to compensate by replacing a higher paid employee that know what he is doing with one that half ass knows what he is doing but makes the books like nicer. You can see here (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/05/03/475952/ceo-pay-faster-worker-pay/?mobile=nc) that companies have spiraled out of control. Heck look at AIG, General motors bonuses paid out when we the tax payers were paying their salaries

Not indentured servitude (2, Insightful)

MSTCrow5429 (642744) | about 2 years ago | (#42950175)

Indentured servitude is a form of debt bondage, with no wages; it has nothing to do with choosing to work for lower than X wages and less control. Such hysterics don't speak well of /..

Re:Not indentured servitude (5, Insightful)

kidgenius (704962) | about 2 years ago | (#42950693)

It is a form of bondage though, as those workers have no freedom to move to a different company on that visa. They are tied to the company. Therefore, they have to accept a lower wage because there is no threat of them leaving for a competitor.

one solution (5, Insightful)

phantomfive (622387) | about 2 years ago | (#42950183)

If they allowed H1B visa holders to find other jobs, then this wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem, because employers wouldn't be able to force them into indentured servitude. If they were able to find other jobs, their salaries would rise to the level of their ability.

Well Duh! (0, Troll)

Irate Engineer (2814313) | about 2 years ago | (#42950189)

This is capitalism in action folks. Nothing to see here, move along.

Old News (1)

DogDude (805747) | about 2 years ago | (#42950199)

I was in IT a bit over a decade ago. This kind of thing was prevalent back then. I don't find it surprising at all.

old story (0)

turkeydance (1266624) | about 2 years ago | (#42950211)

typical NPR. last millennium story.

Re:old story (2)

hawguy (1600213) | about 2 years ago | (#42950665)

typical NPR.
last millennium story.

Are you saying that it's no longer an issue and companies are welcoming experienced older workers with open arms?

really? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950213)

news at 11 ... seriously?

This is very true (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950219)

I had worked for a major software company that was not Microsoft but worked in the virtualization area.

Over the last few years saw anybody over 50 terminated and then subsequently replaced with immigrant workers for lower wages. The workers terminated had alot of experience and could do the job more correctly and faster than staff subsequently hired -- suspect longer vacation time and higher wages made them targets for termination.

This has happened consistently over 3 years.

This is wrong.

They took our jerrrrbs (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950223)

and then went back to India where they had crazy buying power with their US dollars.

Captcha: Wiretaps (echelon is that you?)

Older IT staff = Higher expected pay (5, Insightful)

eksith (2776419) | about 2 years ago | (#42950231)

It's just a race to the bottom in terms of dollar amount spent on manpower. It's basically outsourcing without having the workforce overseas.

Welcome to my world (0)

cyberspittle (519754) | about 2 years ago | (#42950251)

This is the world we live in. We eat our own.

what else is new (1)

umghhh (965931) | about 2 years ago | (#42950255)

the bonus hunters are paid for this and obviously getting away with it. It seems that cheaper less skilled labour is good enough.

Ummm NO... it is not just aging US Workers.. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950261)

It is ALL US workers.
I have personally seen a downsize where ALL US workers were let go and ALL of the H1-Bs were retained.
This is not a joke or a tall tail.
And Note that US workers were at or even better in the skills that were retained.

This would go some way in explaining... (5, Insightful)

ackthpt (218170) | about 2 years ago | (#42950273)

I've been observing a downward spiral in quality of web applications, sites and services for some years now. Old school programmers/developers wouldn't make some of the bone-headed mistakes I keep encountering. How can we suddenly have so many incompetant people doing this work? Easy - they know how to write code, but do not have the wisdom to avoid drop-through logic, non-intuitive interfaces, extremely fragile code, etc.

Gotta be a mill somewhere, cranking out code monkeys who are paid by the deadline, not but the quality of their work.

video showing how this is done (5, Informative)

corbettw (214229) | about 2 years ago | (#42950275)

This is an older video, but it shows just how companies manage to avoid hiring qualified Americans just to flood the market with cheap H1B laborers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU [youtube.com]

Just what I wanted to hear (1)

bobthesungeek76036 (2697689) | about 2 years ago | (#42950277)

being a 50+ year-old IT worker...

Stirring up the "dey tuk r jerbs" crowd again (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950281)

Crap article which boils down to the same old "he said, she said" without adding anything new to the debate.

I did find the "Enterprise Architect" who commented first at NPR to be funny; Amazon, Google, et. al. don't want IT personnel, they want computer scientists.

Nothing new here (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950285)

M$ and others have been doing this for years. Of course, the Federal Government keeps bringing them in. Once they get a Green Card they get fired and another group is brought in. This has been standard operating practices for years. Of course these people work for sub wages when waiting for their Green Card. This is the economics of the IT industry and has been for years.

Time for a union in IT to stop this BS and more (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950301)

Time for a union in IT to stop this BS and more

Cost to much to be old (4, Insightful)

Nyder (754090) | about 2 years ago | (#42950303)

As in, cost to much to pay older workers. Why? Because with corporations, greed matters I mean, the bottom line matters. Why should they pay people $60k a year when they can outsource it/hire cheaper foreigners in the states for $30k a year?

Corporate Greed, giving your job to someone else for cheaper.

Value of experience (1)

Kaenneth (82978) | about 2 years ago | (#42950305)

I was thinking the relevance of experience in technical fields decays over time, like a radioactive half life.

I worked with a guy that tested software for missiles in the 60's... and didn't know you could use modifier keys (shift, ctrl...) with mouse clicks.

Unemployment? (2)

tnk1 (899206) | about 2 years ago | (#42950309)

Seriously. Any administration who promises to deal with unemployment, and yet allows this to happen, is just incredibly misguided.

We have enough problems with unskilled citizens unable to get jobs, let alone trucking in some guest workers to now make the skilled citizen IT workers unemployable.

Crazy (4, Insightful)

Intrepid imaginaut (1970940) | about 2 years ago | (#42950313)

Is there any other business with such an age bias, beyond sports and teen pop idols. You don't see lawyers or accountants being treated like this, nor architects or mechanical engineers. There is no reason whatsoever for a youth culture in IT and programming, experience is more valuable than anything else in this business, moreso than most other businesses.

Ah, corporate America... (1)

Un pobre guey (593801) | about 2 years ago | (#42950317)

... the Workers' Paradise.

Unionize Now? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950319)

How many stories like this must happen before workers are compelled to protect themselves?

Stop whining and go find work in India (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950321)

It's a two-way street you know. What, you think just because you're American you're entitled to a job?

Sickening (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950323)

I thought slavery had been abolished? Hardly...

apprenticeships (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950325)

we need to bring apprenticeships back into the mainstream.

Some dubious reasoning here... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950327)

The worker in question here had graduated less than a year ago after a career change. You'll be very pressed to find a H1-B worker who has less than a year work experience.

Also, while I don't dispute that the mean wage for programmers in the US has stagnated, so have a lot of other job sectors. It's the economy, stupid! And the mean wage is a terrible thing to measure here. It could in fact mean that the people that are doing H1-B complicated level work are getting paid twice as much, but also there's a massive increase in less well paid junior positions (which is very likely - we need a whole lot more day-to-day programmers than we did in 2001)

In all fairness... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950329)

Every person and companies want loyalty. With heavy rotations, and people getting bored at 1 or 2 years of working, H1B proposes workers attached to companies (or the immediate leave of the country). Would it be different if instead of having people with H1B, people would directly get a greencard? Particularly if those are US university graduates?

cost of living not as high as in america (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950331)

The cost of living in many countries aren't as high as in the states. Like in the Philippines, most things cost about 3x less except for vehicles and electronics. The cost of rent per month can be much less than $200USD per month but the standard of living is also lower such as not having a hot shower but a bucket of water, rats etc.. The pay there even if you have a college degree can be only twice as much as minimum wage in the US if you're lucky. When they get hired by countries like the US, it helps them live a better life but at the same time it comes at the cost of Americans not having as many job opportunities. The question is, are Americans willing to lower its cost of living in order to compensate for the jobs being outsourced? Would Americans be OK to work for $4/hr. without a college degree and $16/hr with one? In other words, would Americans really be OK to have their taxes increased and their wages decreased, but the cost of most things would be reduced by about 3-4x? I think the answer is no because there's no way to really earn a retirement or go places but at the same time there's no way for Americans to survive with such high standards of living. Corporations need to compete to stay in business, and the people need to buy the lowest costing items to survive. It's always a lose-lose situation unless there's a country rich enough to use the US as its source of outsourcing. Someone always has to be at the bottom and the US is turning belly up fairly quickly.

job based health care hurts haveing older people (5, Insightful)

Joe_Dragon (2206452) | about 2 years ago | (#42950349)

job based health care hurts having older people work for companies.

"Demand lower wages" (4, Funny)

Kittenman (971447) | about 2 years ago | (#42950353)

What the ... ??? "No, I won't take $100 an hour. I insist of $20 at the most".

This is happening in all departments for a while (5, Interesting)

Grand Facade (35180) | about 2 years ago | (#42950355)

That and using temp workers calling them contract but not paying contract wages.

Thus avoiding paying for benefits and vacations.

It's like the trucking industry "driver shortage" an illusion promoted around a business model that uses up (abuses) young drivers.

Bleh... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950363)

Sometimes I am tempted to think that employers are secretly working on repealing the thirteenth amendment.

Disclaimer: this post was written after the consumption of about 1.2 litres of strong cider and should be take with a few grains of salt (and s shot of Tequila).

Urban Airship (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950369)

This is the plan for companies like Urban Airship! The try and hide it through the use of a Minister of culture.

I heard a bit of this today (1, Troll)

AwesomeMcgee (2437070) | about 2 years ago | (#42950371)

Sounded fairly spot-on, this whole H1-B mess is a tricky wicket but in the end it's a shit deal for everyone. Interesting to know that my title earns the same as it did 15 years ago in whole numbers, not adjusted for inflation or anything, I knew this already but didn't think about it or what that actually means until I heard the story on the radio today. Talk about stagnating, I'd almost say worse from the stories you hear about the mid-late 90's. Never attributed this to the H1-B crap but who knows. On the bright side the managerial dickwads doing this are the types I wouldn't want to work for anyways so I guess I can't feel bad about competing with what is literally indentured servitude. Though I am ashamed my country is both partaking in it, as well as the fact that they're doing it simply at the whims of corporate execs rather than looking at real numbers of unemployed members in the tech industry.

Business opportunity? (3, Interesting)

ewg (158266) | about 2 years ago | (#42950373)

So can I make money hiring underemployed older IT workers and marketing their labor for top dollar?

In all fairness... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950381)

Every person and companies want loyalty. With heavy rotations, and people getting bored at 1 or 2 years of working, H1B proposes workers attached to companies (or the immediate leave of the country).

Would it be different if instead of having people with H1B, people would directly get a greencard? Particularly if those are US university graduates?

"Demand lower wages" .... (1)

Kittenman (971447) | about 2 years ago | (#42950385)

What on earth... "No, I won't take $100 an hour. I insist on $20, if not less".

And the article itself is a transcript. .. An unnamed woman is documented as asking if the listeners would like a cup of coffee. Maybe the editor of the transcript could have dropped that comment out.

BTW, yes please, maybe with a croissant or danish ...

Damn! (2)

hguorbray (967940) | about 2 years ago | (#42950387)

I picked a bad time to get old!

I'm luckier than some because I re-entered IT in '95 and didn't get an AA degree until 2002, so on paper it looks like I'm about 35

-I'm just sayin'

No worries after corporate espionage ... (1)

fygment (444210) | about 2 years ago | (#42950399)

... peaks as the indentured foreign workers bolster their incomes by selling company information. A few well publicize cases will set things right.

Read the article (0)

theRunicBard (2662581) | about 2 years ago | (#42950401)

Very little factual information. While this COULD be true, I just saw one guy complaining combined with an interesting statistic that average wages for programmers are still below $40 an hour. That's a joke, right? That's six figures a year. Sure, everyone would want more, but it's a perfectly reasonable salary as is.

they demand lower wages (1)

hguorbray (967940) | about 2 years ago | (#42950407)

workers of the world unite -you have nothing to lose but your wages!

-I'm just saying

My 2 cents (1)

Jimbob The Mighty (1282418) | about 2 years ago | (#42950409)

Aren't the corporations mandated to do this?

This is why I moved into management (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950421)

I'm irreplaceable!

...and they demand lower wages (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950427)

Who writes these stupid summaries? I've never demanded a lower wage.

All kidding aside, this is the problem - a subtlety like that would not happen with an English speaker;
I can't tell you how (harmlessly) nuts stuff like that makes me when I read it.

And yes, U.S. business are displacing U.S. workers with cheap, foreign labor. Not just the older
professionals, young ones as well. The H-1B visa program has no merit and should go away.
But we have clowns like Gates et. al., who don't to be held accountable to the very populace that
put them where they are today. Ingrates. They're not even secretive about it any more. Very sad.
The U.S. was a place to look up to. Now, China is looking like they're going to push the U.S. aside. Thanks Nixon.

CAPTCHA = dedicate === uncanny how this thing comes up with words...

Large Corporations getting little value (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950433)

You get what you pay for. Or in this case, you get less than you pay for. Sorry, but if these H-1B workers would be any good, they'd be programming rockstars in their own countries (China/India/etc) instead of seeking suckers in the US.

It's Time to Send the H-1Bs home (1)

DakotaSmith (937647) | about 2 years ago | (#42950439)

I have a blog on the subject, if anyone cares:

It's Time To Send the H-1Bs Home [blog.wrstonecom] .

Very unfortunate (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950443)

Unfortunately this is the case in a number of industries. Academia is one.

And Congress will help... (1)

gmanterry (1141623) | about 2 years ago | (#42950447)

By passing the reforms the big contributors want. I long for the days when our politicians represented the people and not the big business interests.

These companies want pre-trained workers, (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950453)

for the exact position they will be filling, so they don't have to spend a cent on job training. That plus the usual greed, where they offer bachelors degree salaries while demanding doctoral-level work. From a friend:

"60+ years ago, the American middle class emerged because of the availability of non-skilled jobs paying living wages. Non-skilled: think about that word. It doesn't mean that the job required no skill; it merely meant that the company was willing to pay to completely train the employee as long as the employee was willing to show up.

Non-skilled jobs are gone. And by this, what is meant is that companies are no longer willing to provide much training to their employees. Employees, rather, are required to get extensive, detailed training that matches the increasingly individualized software/hardware packages used to perform a given job before they show up for the interview.

Companies like Microsoft are especially egregious in this regard. The claim is made regularly that we need to open up more H1B visas to allow the glut of better trained Indian workers to fill jobs here for which there just aren't enough "trained" employees. Microsoft won't pay to train those employees themselves, because the fear is once they do, the employee will then leave the job and get a higher wage elsewhere."

duh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950455)

What did you thing it was about? A race to the top?

Illegal to pay less (4, Informative)

sunderland56 (621843) | about 2 years ago | (#42950459)

It is illegal [doleta.gov] to pay a H1B worker less than the prevailing rate.

Good old H1-B Bashing never goes out of fashion (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950463)

There might be a case for saying Aging IT Workers are being displaced With H-1B Visa Workers

  But this article does not make that case. Basically it has a couple of quotes from an anti H-1 lobbyist, a couple of quotes from a HR manager and a couple of quotes from a 60 yr old WHO HAS NEVER ACTUALLY WORKED AS A PROGRAMMER and is looking to break into the field.

There several better, more insightful articles on the effect of H-1s on the workforce. This article can just be skipped.

Indentured servitude (0)

truesaer (135079) | about 2 years ago | (#42950469)

Indentured servitude? Really? I can see how this discussion will be productive.

And this is a reason why so much software sucks (5, Insightful)

gweihir (88907) | about 2 years ago | (#42950491)

Of course not everybody older is actually better. Older folks that have refused to learn will be on par or worse than the younger people. But older folks that have kept up are invaluable. True, young programmers can generate a lot more lines of code for the same price, but once you take quality into account and things like design and architecture, most code by young programmers sucks badly. Not their fault, but quite a bit of experience is required for good coding. Unfortunately, incompetent management cannot understand that (and most management is incompetent with regard to IT). What would be needed is something that other engineering disciplines have mastered: Qualification levels, and required minimum qualification levels of personnel used to protect you from becoming liable for software failures. While this may sound old-school, there really seems to be no other way. If electricians were the mixed bag that "programmers" are, houses would burn down all the time and many people would die from electrocution.

Happened to us... 470 laid off replaced by Infosys (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950495)

The irony is that Infosys didn't even have the staff to replace us until a week or more after we left.
And they are basically training their guys in SAP at the former companies expense.

Simple solution (4, Interesting)

Skapare (16644) | about 2 years ago | (#42950499)

Anyone here on H-1B should be allowed to seek any job anywhere for the duration of their H-1B stay. They just need to negotiate with the new employer during the 3 year visa term to provide pro-rated compensation to the company that pre-paid to put the H-1B through. That eliminates the indentured servitude and opens the free market to the technical talent, as it should be.

Who demands lower wages? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950501)

If anything, they are willing to work for less to have a job with wages.

If it makes you feel any better... (1)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about 2 years ago | (#42950515)

As an underpaid non-American Gen. Y IT worker, we are just absolutely fucked. We have very little opportunity and no resources to fall back on. No newish car to sell or house to downsize. Older American IT workers can demand more money because they have more options. So call corporations unpatriotic bastards all you want, they are, but don't act like you're not massively better off.

Not just IT (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950521)

It's been happening to some B.C. mines here too. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/02/03/hd-mining-reject-experience-miners-unions_n_2612445.html

Basically they ship in foreign workers for cheap and ignore the resumes of more experienced Canadian workers. They do this by telling the government that they can't find anyone experienced enough. Luckily it's been exposed by the union up here.

The difference though is that the mining company wants to run things their way; including lack of safety protocol and environmental protection. This is entirely possible when the miners are all foreign and sequestered away from the rest of the population.

The parallel to IT is that once the projects are 'done', the foreign workers are shipped home and a total mess is left for the remaining people (i.e. YOU) to clean up. It's extremely frustrating, to the point that I'm glad I will be retiring soon. The only jobs that will be left will be cleaning up after cheap amateurs.

Cheaper in the long term (1)

gutnor (872759) | about 2 years ago | (#42950523)

Very often the starting salary of visa worker is the same as "regular" worker. The main difference is that the visa worker has significantly more difficulties to find another job once in the country. He is also always at risk of having to leave the country if he get fired. It is not necessary to get people cheap, inflation will take care of that for you.

Visa is a nice legal trap for foreign employees. When you have a job you are almost like a normal citizen, the day you are out of work you quickly realise that it is were you are born that matters, not how much taxes you paid.

test (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950527)


Correct title (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950533)

Government Displacing Aging IT Workers With H-1B Visa Workers

So I did an interesting experiment recently (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950537)

I Googled a bunch of old co-wokers, bosses, and managers that I've worked with in the past. All were in the IT field (as was I) when I worked with them. Out of about 20 people I couldn't find a single one that was still in the industry. Most, like myself, had moved on to other fields like finance, while some were engaged in hobby-type careers doing stuff they enjoyed.

In other words, fuck you IT industry.

Not just programmers. (0)

ma1wrbu5tr (1066262) | about 2 years ago | (#42950547)

IT staff
Support Staff
Customer Service
Even some service industry jobs like hotel staff

All being H1-B'ed and frequently subsidized at the taxpayer's expense.
This country's government has no sense of how to do anything but keep
itself in power and fully funded. As long as the corporates support them
financially and politically, expect more of the same legislation that has brought
us to this point.

Time to Pull the Plug (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950551)

The experienced IT workforce needs to unilaterally pull the plug on the internal systems they've implemented over the years for these corporations. Then walkout and leave the low-wage foreign labour to attempt and fail miserably to get those systems back on-line. if the wages of the H1-Bs matched the true market rate most people would not be as concerned apart from the obvious ageism prevalent within corporations about their IT staff. Funny nobody seems to want to replace the 70 year old attorneys and 90 year old senile university professors, much less the aged politicians. Imagine a politician over 35 years old being elected to office...the scandal would ruin the nation. ;)

Looks like a no win situation. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950553)

If "they" are successful in blocking or reducing the H-1Bs, the companies ship the whole programming operation over seas raterh than bring the outsiders in.

Sad, I see no solution.

in other news - earth still orbiting sun (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950555)

this has nothing to do lack of available workers but everything to do with trying to cram a networking / programming / project manager / client support role into a single job for 30k / year

No shit, Sherlock. (1)

dccase (56453) | about 2 years ago | (#42950573)

Those guys must be journalists or something.

No shit, Serlock. (1)

dccase (56453) | about 2 years ago | (#42950581)

Those NPR guys must be journalists or something.

If it makes you feel any better (1, Insightful)

GameboyRMH (1153867) | about 2 years ago | (#42950583)

As an underpaid 3rd-world Gen. Y IT worker, we are just absolutely fucked. We have no options, no car or house that can be downsized. We might never have these things. Older American IT workers can demand more money because they have more options, the cost of living is not always less for the outsourced labor. So call companies that outsource unpatriotic bastards, they are, but don't act like you're not lounging in the lap of luxury compared to the foreign workers.

So where is the EEOC on this? (2)

dkleinsc (563838) | about 2 years ago | (#42950589)

Age discrimination is illegal. You can read the law [eeoc.gov] yourself, where it specifically states:

It shall be unlawful for an employer-

        (1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual or otherwise discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s age;

        (2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual’s age; or

        (3) to reduce the wage rate of any employee in order to comply with this chapter.

It's very clear language, and there's no legitimate reason that the companies who are doing this should not be in court right now about it.

The Maximum Wage (1)

timeOday (582209) | about 2 years ago | (#42950591)

The Maximum Wage exactly isn't a law, like the Minimum Wage. It's just a gentlemen's agreement, that whenever supply and demand drive wages for something out of line with cultural expectations, we can just change the laws (H1-B) or ignore them (illegal immigrants).

It's about time we fixed this (1)

ireallyhateslashdot (2297290) | about 2 years ago | (#42950595)

We need to scrap (or at least greatly reduce) the whole H1-B visa program. Corporations are using it to exploit foreign workers and keep local wages artificially low. When is Congress going to step up and do something for the American workforce?

Oh, yeah, that's right. It's the same corporations that fund their election and re-election campaigns that are committing the abuse.

But but but teh shortages! (1)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | about 2 years ago | (#42950597)

The easiest way to shut up anyone claiming that H1-Bs are about "shortages" is to argue that they don't go far enough. It shouldn't be required that people have a sponsoring company. Anyone with a degree from a reputable institution and some proof of experience should get a work visa, and then have the same market freedoms as the rest of us, with the salary bargaining power that goes with it.

And if they can't find an adequate job, or aren't doing what they claimed they came here for, just kick them out, easy peasy.

needs to be proven in court. (1)

Shavano (2541114) | about 2 years ago | (#42950601)

If it can be proven, this is breaking the lae in two ways. First, it's illegal age discrimination. Second, it's immigration fraud.

You get what you pay for. (1)

Lodragandraoidh (639696) | about 2 years ago | (#42950617)

You get what you pay for. 'nuff said.

Shortage of Cheap Talent (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950625)

There is no shortage of IT talent- just a shortage of cheap IT talent

HR Staff (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950629)

Maybe they should start displacing their crappy HR people that do such a piss poor job of filtering the resumes.

That's going to come back to haunt them (2)

sakti (16411) | about 2 years ago | (#42950635)

Firing your most skilled employees in a highly specialized and difficult field is beyond stupidity. This will end badly for them. Fortunately for the rest of us this means that there will be some talent freed up. So snatch them up while you can.

Lol, shortage... (1)

lightknight (213164) | about 2 years ago | (#42950637)

See, we want programmers for around $40K, and, damn it, they are asking for more than that! Don't they realize that we consider them a trade now? So what if they went to university for four years to be a Computer Scientist or Software Engineer. We want what we want for the price we want. That's why we want to business school, and slept through all those classes! And what a fine job we have done piloting the US economy! Yes sir, no bailouts or scandals anywhere on the horizon!

New rule: companies may no longer hold a green card over a candidate in an effort to lower their salaries. Immigrants are free to compete with natives, but only on a level playing field. None of this "we'll sponsor you if you act like a good slave for wages 50% of the natives."

Infinite supply of indentured servants good... (1)

buybuydandavis (644487) | about 2 years ago | (#42950641)

Limited supply of skilled workers with bargaining power bad.

IM Anecdotal O, I agree. (1)

cosm (1072588) | about 2 years ago | (#42950657)

I've seen this a few places. Though I where I live it seems like there really is a serious shortage of C#/SQL/ASP.Net developers. Look at the job boards of any major city and those are some of the most proliferated spots that recruiters just cannot seem to fill fast enough (or at all) these days.

So you have probably a few things at play here; the younger generation in the USA not learning the languages/skills/whatever that the market is currently demanding, then you have the older US workers with more experience requesting competitive salaries, as they should be mind you, for qualified top level engineering talent can be scarce, but the bean counters looking at the balance sheets have realized that every time they raise the H1-B cap that is more foreign talent they can hire at a minimum for reasons the summary mentioned. (it's not really a fucking cap if they keep raising it)

Is anybody surprised by this? Dickhole politicians pass laws that benefit their dickhole benefactors.

Cue the xenophobia (4, Insightful)

moderatorrater (1095745) | about 2 years ago | (#42950669)

I work for a large company that hires based on talent. We can't get enough workers, H-1B or not. We don't discriminate based on age or anything else, just skill. The stories in my area are the same for all companies: we can't get enough skilled programmers.

This headline will just serve as an excuse for people to post rants about how their talent is being overlooked because of the foreigners invading our shores while ignoring the fact that many people who try to work as programmers are just terrible (see: fizzbuzz).

Not surprising, at all... (1)

boethius (14423) | about 2 years ago | (#42950675)

I worked for a small manufacturing company that was acquired by a much larger Fortune 500 multi-national (actually, it was acquired by a larger company and that company was in turn acquired by this F500 corporation).

Right as we were purchased the F500 company hired a new CIO - they'd basically been without a formal C-level IT executive for several months. What was the first thing he did? Outsource the IT help desk. Within 6 weeks of his hire date he had shuttered the entire Austin, TX-based North American help desk in favor of Wipro. Shortly thereafter application support went offshore to Satyam (who some may recall later got embroiled in a major CEO-led accounting scandal).

The company at the same time was also driving its FTEs in IT to telecommute, proclaiming it saved the company money when users telecommuted. When I first went into the IT office building in Silicon Valley most of the people there were FT employees (and, not to be racist but more as a point of contrast, mostly white). About 8 months later when I went down there for a meeting - like everyone else in IT I was by then working 99% of the time from home - the IT building could have passed for a call center in Bangalore. Instead of saving money as they proclaimed they were filling it up with offshore programmers, admins, architects etc. working onshore for different Stateside projects.

Sadly... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42950685)

It's not surprising in the least that US corporations want to bring in folks they can pay a fraction of the salary and not worry about complaints because the workers know if they rock the boat they'll just get their visa withdrawn.

However, the sadder thing is that, the H1B idiots are frigging Einstein compared to the ones too dumb to get out of India ... the ones who work for various Bangalore Bargain Bin dev houses and continually call me for "you give code please".

Posting Anon so I don't piss off my employer.

Hypocracy much? (2, Insightful)

Tailhook (98486) | about 2 years ago | (#42950687)

Some large fraction of the slashdot crowd enjoys characterizing anti-illegal immigration types as 'racists.' Illegal immigration wiped out meat packing unions. It lowered the wage floor for tens of millions of workers.

Don't bitch about H-1B pressure if you have no patience for textile workers whinging about their 'jerbs.' Your degree doesn't mean shit; now you're just as fungible as Sally Mae and her meat cleaver, and you have less cause to complain; the H-1B guys are at least legal.

So don't be racist. Our borders and your job must be open to all... only racists say otherwise.

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