Announcing: Slashdot Deals - Explore geek apps, games, gadgets and more. (what is this?)

Thank you!

We are sorry to see you leave - Beta is different and we value the time you took to try it out. Before you decide to go, please take a look at some value-adds for Beta and learn more about it. Thank you for reading Slashdot, and for making the site better!

Young IT Workers Disillusioned, Hard to Retain

ScuttleMonkey posted about 7 years ago | from the your-special-just-like-everyone-else dept.

Businesses 853

bednarz writes to mention that NetworkWorld has an interesting examination of young IT professionals and why many make unreasonable demands for their services. "'The issue managers are facing is with retention, not hiring. That means the work environment is not living up to the employee's expectation,' he says. For instance, many younger workers expect to get an office immediately or be paid at a rate higher than entry level."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

Many managers are saddened they actually have to (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009564)

participate in a job market by providing incentives!

Economists around the world are stunned. Was Adam Smith right? Were there truly rational actors within an economy?

Wiki effect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009582)

They are all jumping on the wiki, facebook etc. bandwagon. And creating survey websites and crap like that. Why should they work for you dorkface ?

Re:Wiki effect (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009836)

No, they are all realizing that everything from tech support to development to taking orders at mcdonald's is being outsources to china and india, so they would rather find something less temporary.

Re:Many managers are saddened they actually have t (2, Insightful)

wasted (94866) | about 7 years ago | (#22009628)

...Was Adam Smith right? Were there truly rational actors within an economy?

Yes, there are rational actors within the economy, but it seems that Young IT Professionals aren't among them.

Re:Many managers are saddened they actually have t (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009742)

Let the little bastards have a house payment, car payment and utilities and not pay check. Bet that changes their tune. Hell I'm a CPA with a Masters and 30 years experience and I still don't have an office. But my check is bigger than the guys that do so I'll gladly give up an office for more pay.

Re:Many managers are saddened they actually have t (2, Informative)

Original Replica (908688) | about 7 years ago | (#22009996)

Hell I'm a CPA with a Masters and 30 years experience and I still don't have an office.

With 30 years experience I'm sure you know this, but for everyone new to the idea: Offices are only for people who have a business need to have private meetings. No one else needs an office, that's just a waste of space and roadblock to collaboration. I used to work on a production floor where some of the senior machinists made more that the managers in their offices. Skilled workers don't have a need for an office so they don't get one, while even very junior company infrastructure types (management, HR, etc.) frequently need to be able to shut the door and have a discussion with someone.

Re:Many managers are saddened they actually have t (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009744)

Irrational actors make good money too. Look at Tom Cruise.

Re:Many managers are saddened they actually have t (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009764)

It isn't just IT, it can be seen in many other industries as well. It believe this is just one more example of what my generation is facing (19-30), the "something for nothing" problem.
Many of my peers expect to graduate college and start off on the same level their parents are (who have worked for 30 years). I see this both in all my peers, from the construction workers to the computer scientists. I don't believe it is unique in I.T.

For a hard working programmer... (1)

Marcion (876801) | about 7 years ago | (#22009710)

...please email marcion@....

Just kidding (I like my job).

Spoiled (1, Insightful)

Chlorus (1146335) | about 7 years ago | (#22009586)

"For instance, many younger workers expect to get an office immediately or be paid at a rate higher than entry level." And pray tell, what magical career instantly gives employees fresh out of college above-entry level rates? What next, are they going to start complaining they don't get a company car and an attractive secretary to take to Hawaii?

Re:Spoiled (3, Insightful)

User 956 (568564) | about 7 years ago | (#22009672)

And pray tell, what magical career instantly gives employees fresh out of college above-entry level rates?

Perhaps the "entry level" rate for whatever position they're talking about is not in sync with the "market rate". Supply and demand affects the job market too.

Re:Spoiled (5, Insightful)

shinehead (603005) | about 7 years ago | (#22009776)

I am in my mid forties working in IT and I must say that my team members that are in their 20's really don't seem to have the motivation to learn the technology as I did 20 years ago, staying up all night on bulletin boards, spending every free moment tweaking my config.sys or netx stack for better performance. I see kids today that learn their core responsibilities but make no effort to progress further. I don't mind though, I have noticed several local fortune 500 companies are targeting "older" people for open positions, stating that the younger aren't seasoned enough or lack the skillset needed to be successful in the data center. Go ahead kids, keep on playing WOW and put your VMware books aside, that helps me stay relevant for the 15 years until I retire.

Re:Spoiled (1)

modmans2ndcoming (929661) | about 7 years ago | (#22009936)

I hate that. And where, pray tell will these companies find good seasoned staff that knows what they are doing if they do not train these idiots?

The feds should do what they do for hospitals... reimburse companies who bring on young fresh out of college IT staff and send them through a rigorous OTJ training course. Then everyone wins. companies are not taking a huge financial risk by taking on a green horn or two, new ideas are injected into the companies IT department, young new workers get opportunities that did not exist prior to such a system, the H1B vista issues drops from the map, the tech sector stays competitive in the world.

Re:Spoiled (0)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | about 7 years ago | (#22010054)

We don't feel that we should be expected to "earn" the right to be part of the important goings on in our culture. We feel that, even if we do "earn" what rights are available, we will still be pawns in someone elses game, and we have no more love or respect for their game than they have for us, so we don't bother.

We consume these "opiates" because we hate the real world we live in, we see no hope of changing it, and we have given up and fled to imaginary land. In our zoned out state, we do only what we must to exist, because we are not really here.

Now, some of us haven't given up. But we still don't take jobs for employers, we become self-employeed.

None of us are interested in taking these "entry level jobs" in the hopes that we might be blessed with something better some day. We know that someday will not come.

If young people were going to develop responsibility, they would need to have a connection to what they're responsible for, which means giving them real power in the world, which isn't happening.

If young people do develop a sense of responsibility, they are still not going to take jobs. They are going to take over.

Re:Spoiled (1)

yintercept (517362) | about 7 years ago | (#22010040)

My reaction to that quote was simply that a recession might be good for the economy. Recessions generally help realign imbalances in the job market and in people's attitudes.

Of course the other part of the article didn't make sense. What is an "entry wage?"

More often than not, companies lowball starting workers. Comparing wages to housing, the price of gold and other indicators, I think there is good indication all workers are getting lowballed at the moment. If wages were somehow correlated with productivity, then the value of workers (along with the amount that they are paid) may have jumped while us old timey IT folks failed to realize it.

Re:Spoiled (1)

morari (1080535) | about 7 years ago | (#22010058)

The problem is entry-level rates are pathetic. Have you took a look at minimum wage, for example? Working isn't even worth your time and effort if that's all you're getting in return.

Pay your dues (2, Insightful)

cb_is_cool (1084665) | about 7 years ago | (#22009598)

How many truly influential people (Torvalds, Gates, Jobs, etc, etc, etc) jumped to stardom overnight? For that matter, how many upper-level IT guys and gals in big firms got there overnight? Work hard and treat the other people in your office right and it will happen for you. And most of all, make sure you don't act like this [theregister.co.uk] guy :)

Re:Pay your dues (3, Insightful)

Lemmy Caution (8378) | about 7 years ago | (#22009692)

Well, none of those guys are IT guys, properly speaking. And all of them achieved their real success before the age 30. If the moral of your post is "you gotta pay your dues," those 3 aren't good examples of that principle.

Re:Pay your dues (1)

cb_is_cool (1084665) | about 7 years ago | (#22009866)

Well, yeah bad examples maybe but they still exerted a massive amount of productivity before they started getting any recognition. This article is talking about kids out of college expecting miracles.

Re:Pay your dues (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010062)

they still exerted a massive amount of productivity

What did Gates produce (himself)?

Re:Pay your dues (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009832)

Your list is ridiculous. Torvalds became widely known for Linux while still in college. Both Gates and Jobs were running their own successful companies before they were old enough to drink, and Jobs was a multi-millionaire at an age when many people are still trying to graduate from college. If you're trying to make a list of people who had to pay their dues before achieving immense success, for god's sake choose some other people!

No age discrimination! (5, Funny)

14erCleaner (745600) | about 7 years ago | (#22009604)

From FTA:

more than 50% of respondents described those teen and 20-something employees as the "toughest generation to manage." Generation Xers (ages 32 to 42 years old) placed second with 17% of respondents saying they pose a management challenge.
Hey, that means 50-ish programmers like me should be highly sought after!

Ouch, I think I hurt my back laughing...

Re:No age discrimination! (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | about 7 years ago | (#22009946)

That's nothing! They should try managing PhDs...

Re:No age discrimination! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010018)

What about the 30-31 year olds?

Re:No age discrimination! (1)

Jarik_Tentsu (1065748) | about 7 years ago | (#22010032)

I'd say part of this could be related to the fact many IT guys can be really smart, but their love for IT and computers put them into an industry that doesn't necessarily pay the best. I was actually planning to go into IT, but decided engineering would be more interesting considering the current state of the industry, which is only really interesting at higher levels (Enterprise Architecture, etc) or R&D.

I reckon this'll mean that either businesses will do even more outsourcing, or they'll have to pay more if they start finding they can't hire anyone willing to work, or anyone *decent* willing to work.

The real question is, is this inability to retain this generation mean businesses are struggling to hire anyone at all? Because there *are* a lot of people out there with ability to do these kinda jobs...it might just mean more and more IT people will be anti-social people who did a quick programming course at TAFE or something and more and more of the smarter IT guys go off to do different stuff.


Less benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009630)

'Old timers' get pensions and severance packages. We kids get 401(k)'s and told to manage it ourselves.

Re:Less benefits (0)

MSTCrow5429 (642744) | about 7 years ago | (#22009708)

Old timers bankrupt the company, and never get their pensions, or if they get them, get them at greatly reduced rates, and they have to suck at the teat of government via the PBGC, eating up tax dollars to make up for their greed and stupidity. Kids get 401(k)s, which they own, and can invest it, and by providing capital, allow publicly traded companies to expand and create additional jobs, without adding to the crushing tax burden upon the minority productive class. Which is better to you?

Re:Less benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009958)

Exactly. Old timers are 'retained' because they want their pension. They don't even fear getting fired all that much, thanks to severance packages. So, in my limited experience, they do not seem motived to go ANYWHERE.

For us kids with 401(k)s there is little incentive to stay 'retained' since they move so easily from job to job.

Where I work, I hear all about the 'good old days'. A week of vacation for each year at the company. Half-day Fridays. Huge Holiday parties. Those days are gone, and companies haven't realized us kids have nothing anchoring us to the company. There is no reason to stay. None.

Re:Less benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010106)

A week?

An entire week of holidays.
Every year?

You must've been so bored by the end of that massive break [workingtoday.com.au] that you just couldn't wait to be back at work!

Re:Less benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010022)

Which one are you?

Re:Less benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010060)

> Old timers bankrupt the company, and never get their pensions, or if they get them, get them at greatly reduced rates, and they have to suck at the teat of government via the PBGC, eating up tax dollars to make up for their greed and stupidity. Kids get 401(k)s, which they own, and can invest it, and by providing capital, allow publicly traded companies to expand and create additional jobs, without adding to the crushing tax burden upon the minority productive class. Which is better to you?

"Old timers bankrupt the company, and never get their pensions, or if they get them, get them at greatly reduced rates, and they have to suck at the teat of government via the PBGC, eating up tax dollars to make up for their greed and stupidity. Kids get 401(k)s, which they own, and can invest it, and by providing capital, allow publicly traded companies to expand and create additional jobs, without adding to the crushing tax burden upon the minority productive class until the old-timers, not content with bankrupting their companies, also bankrupt their country, and who then reapply that crushing tax burden on earned income, capital gains, dividends, and institute taxes on 401(k) withdrawals, and upon expatriation in order to make sure they get "their" Social Security and "their" health care. Which is better to you?"

(Fixed that for you.)

Which is better? Voting with our dollars by emigrating to countries with more political and economic freedoms while it's still possible.

First they came for the billionaires, and I stuck around because I wasn't a billionaire.
Then they came for the stock options, and I stuck around because my dot-com went bankrupt anyways.
Then they raised the cap on Social Security taxes from $100K to $250K, and I stuck around because I wasn't making $100K anyways.
Then they came for the capital gains and dividends, and I stuck around because with all these taxes, I could never afford to save outside of my 401(k) anyways.
Then they came for my 401(k), and by the time I was finally ready to leave, there was nothing left to loot.

Whether it's the UAW vs. General Motors, or the Boomers vs. the Treasury, eventually there's gonna be nothing left to loot.

Unreasonable demands? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009632)

... or more like a very loosely organized union? As long as the employer has no choice but to pay, then it must be reasonable. The Internet makes it easy to know what others are making and where the money is at.

On the other side, excessive salaries will eventually benefit all the young techies in Bangalor.

Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (4, Interesting)

ironwill96 (736883) | about 7 years ago | (#22009636)

At least where I work, the IT workers (myself included) are paid 40% less than the market rate so there is a reason everyone has low morale and the turnover rate is around 25% or more each year. I don't think there has been a time since I started working there in the last 4 years where there has been every position in the department actually staffed at the same time. This IT department is around 75 people.

Now, maybe that is just working for the State is not very well paying, but it is a problem affecting thousands of employees not just the younger ones. I guess when it comes down to it though, people need to get off their tails and apply for other jobs that pay more if we want to leave. The problem is often that you like the area you are living in, just not the pay rate you are making working there...

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (4, Informative)

jroysdon (201893) | about 7 years ago | (#22009746)

Working for any government agency has other perks. You've got as many or more holidays as a bank and the same hours. The pay is lower, but the stress and time in the office is much lower. Short of committing a felony, you're pretty much guaranteed a job for life once past review periods.

This is just my two cents working at IT companies who do work for government agencies and in my experience interfacing with their staff.

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (4, Insightful)

ironwill96 (736883) | about 7 years ago | (#22009812)

11 holidays a year (3 of which are at Christmas on years it falls on a Tuesday or Wednesday, 2 days other years). Stress is somewhat lower (i've worked in corporate world as well before) and time in the office is 40 hrs/week but overtime happens at least once a month usually and you don't get PAID overtime, you get "compensatory time off" later which you never have time to use because you are so busy. Most of us have months of vacation / comp time built up.

The review stuff you're right, you basically have to be grossly incompetent to get fired, but at the same time even if you are the best IT worker ever you will NEVER get a pay raise from a performance review which sucks. There is zero incentive to do more work than the guy next to you because the slacker gets the same raise as you at performance review time - NOTHING. And, when you do get a raise it is state-wide and everyone gets it equally so how hard you worked doesn't matter. That is a bit depressing..

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

BoomerSooner (308737) | about 7 years ago | (#22010008)

Lol, if you don't like it quit. No one forces you to work for the state.

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009830)

Plus you don't actually have to do any work.

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

ironwill96 (736883) | about 7 years ago | (#22009840)

Forgot to mention, most all of us have at least 3 certifications as well not that they affect salary or mean anything..

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

jroysdon (201893) | about 7 years ago | (#22009934)

Current certs just show you're keeping up with the times. I have to renew 4-5 certs ever 2-3 years (CCVP, CCDP, IP Telephony Design Specialist (CQS-CIPTDS), Cisco Rich Media Specialist (CQS-CRMCS), Cisco Express Design Specialist (CXFS).

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

ucblockhead (63650) | about 7 years ago | (#22009932)

There's no such thing as a "spoiled" employee. The labor market is a free market. Just like corporations are there to maximize revenue, people are in the labor market are there to maximize salary/benefits/job satisfaction.

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

martin-boundary (547041) | about 7 years ago | (#22010010)

What makes you think the market is "free" when there are regulations on hiring practices, regulations on health and safety, regulations on minimum compensation?

The market is nowhere near as free as you pretend, which is actually a good thing overall, but it means that your simplistic invocation of free market dynamics isn't all that relevant.

Re:Sometimes it is not being spoiled.. (1)

magarity (164372) | about 7 years ago | (#22010050)

paid 40% less than the market rate...the turnover rate is around 25% or more each year...since I started working there in the last 4 years
Not to be overly sarcastic but it appears that in really bucking the trend one must ask you: do they know something you don't or are you just a glutton for punishment in taking this 40% cut under market for so long? Let's face it, a 40% pay cut is fracking huge. If market is $100K then you've let $160K blow out the window.

Not completely unbiased.. (0, Troll)

Goalie_Ca (584234) | about 7 years ago | (#22009660)

Many of us "millenials" may want more from our job. Is this entirely unreasonable? No. Because we have university degrees. Our parents generation often did not. We do not go into large debt and spend years getting educated in order to start out at the bottom. But there seems to be this sort of race to the bottom. Masters is the new bachelors.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (1)

jroysdon (201893) | about 7 years ago | (#22009786)

But a degree is totally unnecessary in 90% of IT positions. IMHO, a BA/BS or MA/MS only helps you beat out someone with the same skillset. Except, they've got 4-6+ more years of experience already then the fresh-faced graduate. Again, IMHO, a degree is only needed if you want to go into management or want a fall-back to switch careers.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (3, Insightful)

wasted (94866) | about 7 years ago | (#22009820)

Many of us "millenials" may want more from our job. Is this entirely unreasonable? No. Because we have university degrees....

If one is entry level in a field where a degree is now required, (such as IT), one is entitled to entry level pay and benefits, regardless of what one's parents generation received when they entered the field with its requirements at that time. If one thinks one is underpaid, one has the option of obtaining employment elsewhere. If all employers are underpaying, then one has misjudged one's market value.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (5, Funny)

vistic (556838) | about 7 years ago | (#22009876)

Using "one" in a sentence is a right not to be abused.

One might think one would choose one's words more considerately for other ones when reading one's posts posted from one's computer.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (5, Funny)

wasted (94866) | about 7 years ago | (#22009916)

You win - I've been "one-upped"

Did you read the article (2, Informative)

Rix (54095) | about 7 years ago | (#22009990)

They're complaining that people are doing just that.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (2, Insightful)

Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) | about 7 years ago | (#22010048)

If one thinks one is underpaid, one has the option of obtaining employment elsewhere. If all employers are underpaying, then one has misjudged one's market value.
And if all employees think they are underpaid, then employers have misjudged their market value. That's what happens when you off-shore and H1B the shit out of previous generations working in the same market. The kids aren't stoopid, they see the risk they are taking by staying that profession and they expect to be compensated for it.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (3, Interesting)

Ritchie70 (860516) | about 7 years ago | (#22009822)

Oh please, who do you think your parents generation is?

If you're a "millenial" (what a stupid term) then, roughly speaking, it's me. Everyone I know in the technology arena has at least a bachelor's degree.

I just have a BS in Computer Science. My wife has an MBA, half of another Master's degree, and a BA with a double English/Math major. And don't tell me about student debt!

When I started working in technology 17 years ago, everyone at that company had at least a bachelor's, and most of them had an advanced degree, including some doctorates.

There's nothing special about this latest generation except being whiney spoiled brats. And get off my lawn, damnit.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (1)

modmans2ndcoming (929661) | about 7 years ago | (#22009992)

I feel your debt pain. I want to get my masters but with a triple major (what was I thinking!!!) it is hard to pay that loan down.

take my advice high school geeks... work your ASS off and get a scholarship!

BOOK SMART LOL (2, Insightful)

bitbiter (632065) | about 7 years ago | (#22009850)

That's because you are what is called "book smart" right now. Anyone, in any industry can tell you that people fresh out of school, find out they learn more in the first months on a real job, than they did in years of school.

I am guilty too (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009924)

I learned to program computers before I learned to walk. I taught myself C++ before I reached high school. I graduated (with my BS in CS) at the top of my class and with honors. I thought my code was nothing short of awesome.

Then I learned that real-world, reliable, professional code that clients would actually pay for required something more rigorous than my school projects and hobby computer games. My arrogance blinded me to the fact that my raw talent simply wasn't enough to cut it in the real world...what I needed was good old-fashioned experience (and maturity of style).

I used to say the exact sort of thing you said. "Is this entirely unreasonable? No. Because we have university degrees." But real world failures (and successes) showed me precisely why a lot of employers don't respect university degrees.

Don't get me wrong, the academic education is valuable. I have worked with programmers who do not have degrees, and I have seem them fail in areas where I succeeded precisely because of my education. It is definitely valuable, and gives an advantage. But it is simply not a substitute for real professional experience. Not by a long shot.

You aren't as good as you think you are. Your degree doesn't put you as high on the totem pole as you think it does. You must earn your way up to the top, just like everyone else. And THAT is reasonable.

Experience and Connections (1, Redundant)

brunes69 (86786) | about 7 years ago | (#22009952)

You will soon realize experience and connections often count much more than education when it comes to employment.

I am not trying to bash the value of a university education - I certainly d o not regret my degree. But back in 2003, when I graduated, there is absolutely no way I would have gotten the position I am currently in without the connections I had at the company. If i did not have these connections at the time I would have had to start much more "at the bottom" and would likely not be doing as well as I am currently.

The sooner young people learn how the business world really works the better. Your education means nothing compared to your competition's weekly golf game with his manager. Get out there, go to user groups and community events, socialize with business people in your area. Don't waste your whole university life studying and partying - make as many business connections as you can while in school so you will be prepared when you graduate.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (2, Informative)

coffee412 (787700) | about 7 years ago | (#22009972)

We do not go into large debt and spend years getting educated in order to start out at the bottom. ---- Yes you did. Its just no one told you that while in school. By the way,Welcome to the real world.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (1)

cortesoft (1150075) | about 7 years ago | (#22009984)

College degrees are overrated in the tech industry. Sure I have a bachelors degree from the best university ever (UCLA), but it is in philosophy. Sure, I think philosophy and programming are related, but most people don't. But I got a great programming job right out of college because I actually knew how to program. My employer didn't even look at my degree, just looked at some projects I had done before and hired me. Both my employer and I have had great success ever since.

Re:Not completely unbiased.. (2, Insightful)

Epistax (544591) | about 7 years ago | (#22010024)

I agree entirely. Master's is the new bachelor's. Where I work, you normally start at the lowest level. Master's gets you at the next level. If you transfer from another company, even if you only worked there for two months, you're a level on top of that. Well, there goes THAT use for my master's. People younger than me with less experience and a BS get paid more at my company in the same job now.

I am retiring (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009664)

Hi. Many of you may know me as the person who's been spamming Budgieton myminicity links [myminicity.com] , well. I'm done. Slashdotters will almost instantly point out the link i post as "minicity spam", so I have decided that this minicity stuff is just not worth it.

It is much more enjoyable just to post gross links and or redirects to shock sites. The replies are almost always worth it.

Point being, I'll stop the minicity spam, but really wasn't this the better of the evils out there? Enjoy your goatse/lastmeasure/2girls etc etc. You obviously prefer it to the minicity stuff.

Goatse wins.

Re:I am retiring (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009986)

Your mom must be very proud.

How dare you not do your time... (0, Flamebait)

Arellias (1122023) | about 7 years ago | (#22009674)

Serve your time in a cube like everyone else started in and stop your damn whining. The problem is, these are kids straight out of college who's mommys and daddys paid there way and this is thier first jobs. Only through suffering will you appreciate the door.

most of US disillusioned, find it hard to maintain (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009680)

it doesn't get much phonier than this? the creators' planet/population rescue initiative 'big flash' phase may be at hand? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_first_snow_in_memory;_ylt=A9G_R3nXjodHx8wA4his0NUE [yahoo.com]

let yOUR conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_sc/ye_climate_records;_ylt=A0WTcVgednZHP2gB9wms0NUE [yahoo.com]
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080108/ts_alt_afp/ushealthfrancemortality;_ylt=A9G_RngbRIVHsYAAfCas0NUE [yahoo.com]
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A [nytimes.com]

is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying [google.com]

dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html [cnn.com]

the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.

corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7

as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/us, as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile, will not be available. 'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet, & by your behaviors. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi glowbull warmongering execrable. some of US should consider ourselves somewhat fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate. it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc.... as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis. concern about the course of events that will occur should the life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order. 'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

meanwhile, the life0cidal philistines continue on their path of death, debt, & disruption for most of US. gov. bush denies health care for the little ones;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html [cnn.com]

whilst demanding/extorting billions to paint more targets on the bigger kids;

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/12/bush.war.funding/index.html [cnn.com]

& pretending that it isn't happening here;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3086937.ece [timesonline.co.uk]
all is not lost/forgotten/forgiven

(yOUR elected) president al gore (deciding not to wait for the much anticipated 'lonesome al answers yOUR questions' interview here on /.) continues to attempt to shed some light on yOUR foibles. talk about reverse polarity;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3046116.ece [timesonline.co.uk]

Raises through obtaining skillset / marketabilty (4, Insightful)

jroysdon (201893) | about 7 years ago | (#22009684)

In the IT world, in my personal experience, you obtain raises through adding on to your skillset. With more skills, especially cutting-edge, or hard to find skills, you're worth more to the company. Once you have that skillset, you can let your employer know at your next review (ask for quarterly reviews, or at least semi-annual reviews) that you've added those skillsets and feel you're more valuable to the company. If you're not at least given some hope of a worthwhile upcoming raise (typically at your year review, not sooner) start shopping around - but don't quit or burn bridges. Once you've found a good new employer and they're willing to hire you, go back to your boss and say you'd like to stay, but need to have things adjusted. It won't be out of the blue if you've already brought up your new skillset and expectation of more pay with it. Further, you can let your boss know that the new skills you've aquired is worth X in the market now. The key is to do it politely, not with an ultimatum. Even if they turn you down and aren't willing to offer a bump in pay, be polite, ask for a reference letter (not that you're leaving, just that should they or the company of a change of staff soon, you want to make sure you've got good references), and let them know you'll be seriously considering another job offer you have (don't bluff, you must have another job lined up for this to work, otherwise you'll back down and end up looking like a liar).

Should they counter (it should be for more, not just matching), you could go to the company wanting to hire you and ask for a matching rate for what your existing employer is willing to go up to (don't ask for more than your current employer offered, that sounds greedy and doesn't leave much room for growth if you do jump ship).

Don't forget to be sure of perks, number of paid holidays/vacation days, bonuses, like healthcare, cell phone, paid home internet, company laptop, company car, etc. You might have those now, but not if you leave.

I've traded employers twice like this. As I didn't burn any bridges, I actually work for my first real major employer again, and each time I've traded up in position, title, and of course compensation.

Supply, Demand and Hot Air (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009688)

This is part of the campaign by businesses to talk down wages. Don't fall for it. Those who run businesses are the most familiar with supply and demand and are trying to con their employees. Labour supply is tightening while demand is rising. Times are good for workers. Make the most of it since it won't last for ever. Use the opportunity to demand as much as you can from your employers and drive IT wages up as high as possible. Build up some fat for the lean years that will inevitably come.

Re:Supply, Demand and Hot Air (1, Insightful)

cb_is_cool (1084665) | about 7 years ago | (#22009844)

I dunno, seems to me there is a massive amount of foreign IT available to most any company. Someone will ALWAYS go cheaper than you..

Re:Supply, Demand and Hot Air (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010030)

Ah, mosquito, you have fallen for the propaganda. There is nothing like having a person in front of you whom you can shout at. Businesses would like you to think they can just ring up India and get a replacement. They can't since they cannot shout at an Indian and India also wants it workers.

They are foxing. Just as some companies pretended to look at Linux to get a discount from Microsoft so many companies look at India to get a discount from their employees.

Let us remove the propaganda and flip the argument around: "I dunno, seems to me there is a massive amount of foreign IT employers available to most any employee. Someone will ALWAYS pay more than you.."

Well yeah! (5, Funny)

Pedrito (94783) | about 7 years ago | (#22009690)

For instance, many younger workers expect to get an office immediately or be paid at a rate higher than entry level.

Hell, I expect to be put in charge! I'm just out of college! I know EVERYTHING!!!

Re:Well yeah! (3, Funny)

Anonymous Crobar (1143477) | about 7 years ago | (#22009898)

Spoken by a guy (or girl) who has never worked for a total fucking idiot. :)

Office? You _must_ be new here. (2, Interesting)

NNKK (218503) | about 7 years ago | (#22009696)

I think our CEO technically has an office, but it's usually being used for meetings he's not in.

I believe the only time I've actually seen non-management tech workers get a private office was the result of a fluke. Large company (several thousand employees) buys remains of relatively small company (few hundred) with a long lease on half of a very roomy building with lots of small individual offices, and underutilizes the space. As a result, the only people in the largely-desolate cube farms were temporary workers. Everyone making more than, say, $35k, got an office.

Re:Office? You _must_ be new here. (1)

jroysdon (201893) | about 7 years ago | (#22009868)

My company's CEO is a CCIE (Lance Reid, CCIE #14888, verify CCIE status [cisco.com] ). He doesn't have an office as he's always meeting with customers bringing in more sales - that and we're so mobile we use any old conference area as a desk. Non-technical management is the problem most places, IHMO - I think Dilbert refers to them as PHBs.

Young IT vs Peak Oil (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009714)

In a world of energy and resource scarcity I hardly believe moving pixels around a screen will be of any need in the present and the of course the future.

Non-news (5, Insightful)

strcpy(NULL,... (1089693) | about 7 years ago | (#22009726)

WTF? If supply for something is less than the demand, of course prices will go up.

If a younger person wants, say, $60K for an entry level job and has negotiation power (i.e. another company that pays it), then that is the entry-level payment and it means that you're paying less than what they deserve to your existing employees.

This is one of the content-free articles.

I don't think an office is unreasonable for anyone. The industry took away employee's rights one by one when there was ample supply. Now it's drying up and the workforce is asking for what belonged to them.

If managers stopped "managing" people like they are a herd and became a part of their team, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to hold on to employees as long as the pay is competitive.

Re:Non-news (1)

ChronosWS (706209) | about 7 years ago | (#22009780)

Mod parent up.

Classic supply and demand. If employees want more, they should ask for more, and if enough of them do so, they will get it because there won't be anyone else to do the job. If, on the other hand, there are people willing to work for less, then that's just tough titties. But you can't blame people for trying to get the best deal they can.

Re:Non-news (1)

SirSlud (67381) | about 7 years ago | (#22009856)

I don't think an office is unreasonable for anyone.

Sweet, point me to the next building with 200 offices for 200 programmers.

Re:Non-news (1)

strcpy(NULL,... (1089693) | about 7 years ago | (#22009988)

If you have 200 programmers in one team, either you're doing something huge (so you got the money for the building) or most of them are worthless (who won't do any good with or without an office).

Also, development doesn't have to be where the business is established. You can put marketing in a central place to connect with clients and buy a building in a less populated and cheaper area for your developers, they don't see the customers anyway.

Shared offices also work well in my experience. Putting 2-3 developers in a room doesn't cause too much discomfort. Stacking them up like in a chicken farm along with loud-mouth marketing in a cubicle farm is a good way to make sure that they don't do any useful work, though.

Re:Non-news (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22010012)

Ever been to IBM? Now, a good number of those 200 offices are vacant, while some programmers are two to an office....

Wrong points (1)

shadoelord (163710) | about 7 years ago | (#22009754)

I think the article has the wrong answers; speaking for 5+ years in the digital tv / set top box industry. I believe to many managers / bosses place unrealistic deadlines and projects on their engineers. Far to often have I been told "It should take just 15 minutes!" for something they have no damn clue about. This stems from the fact that most of the bosses I've dealt with are from the dot-com era, they sold the company in the past and what worked for them their they believe works today, even when the technology requirements are vastly different.
Hire good engineers and let them do their job; don't let sales take control of your development cycle and force you into unrealistic deadlines.

Re:Wrong points (1)

SirSlud (67381) | about 7 years ago | (#22009974)

Its easy as fuck not to fall into that trap. Your salary is no place for an ultimatum. Delivering the products and services that do, thats a great place. If what you believe in is true, than being unwilling, too scared, or simply unable to communicate it to your decision makers either makes you a liability, or your management.

If its you, then no worries. If its your management, find another company. Yes, I realize that changing jobs is not always possible, but thats outside the scope of the unrealistic expectations department.

If your deadlines are being created by marketing, I think you're probably misunderstanding something. Marketing has bosses, and their bosses are whoever runs the company, be it a board or a person. Marketing doesn't give a shit when anything comes out. Their dates are provided to them by higher ups. At some point, the folks that run your department and their department meet. Find that source. The marketing department couldn't give less of a shit when something comes out. They just need to know as soon as possible, because .. well, marketing depends on building up interest. If you're having this problem, go to somebody at tell them not to make up dates, but my experience tells me that when engineers or programmers like me are asked to place a date on something, they refuse. So there you have it. Eventually, somebody higher up will try and make an educated decision. It is a good idea to be friends with the folks at your company who are likely to put themselves in the line of fire to provide this date.

Someone has to be the toughest (2, Insightful)

cortesoft (1150075) | about 7 years ago | (#22009802)

The survey question was which generation is the toughest to manage... meaning at least one generation has to be the toughest. The question wasn't "Are your employees aged 18-31 tough to manage?" Since most of the managers are probably older, it is natural that the generation furthest from their age would be the toughest for them to manage. They are the most foreign in terms of experience, lifestyle, life stage, and expectations. I am in fact surprised that it was only 50% who chose the youngest generation. Given the size of the generations listed in the survey, there is most likely only 4 generations at most who are working - 18-31, 32-42, 43-53, 54-65. Given the general youth in the IT field, most of the people who have to be managed in IT will be from the younger generations, making them more likely to be the most difficult to manage. In addition the article states that 'Twenty-three percent of respondents said retaining existing staff is the top concern, while 22% said they struggle to find new qualified candidates.' If this is the case, then clearly they AREN'T paying enough, as the demand out paces supply. I find the whole tone of the summary a bit misleading.

It ain't all about money (2, Insightful)

prisoner (133137) | about 7 years ago | (#22009804)

Don't get me wrong, money is important but the environment is just as important. You have to allow leeway both in terms of environment and opportunity. I run a consulting biz and you have to allow room for the younger guys to experiment with new stuff. If you don't, they get bored no matter how much you pay them or what sort of office they have.

The real key though is to migrate the desire of the younger guys from tearing apart every new technology to the skillset of an established professional. It might be somewhat less exciting but in the end it is what customers want and what pays the bills. As your guys/gals get older and move along in life a polished skillset pays the best.

Oh, and if you're really smart, you'll achieve those long view items w/o crushing that natural curiosity out of your folks. That is, after all, what makes all of this exciting.

Economics (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009818)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this one of those signs the market is supposed to respond to?
They can't keep employees because they pay too little, but they still need the employees, leading to a pay hike?

Mind you I never took economics, but that's the way I understood the market, supply and demand.

Could be it more than just pay (5, Interesting)

SilentChris (452960) | about 7 years ago | (#22009848)

* Could be that we got out of college and started jobs at or below entry level salaries given the economic downturn immediately after 9/11.
* Could be that 5-10 years later the market has changed so dramatically that it's unusual to even find a company with an "IT department" anymore. It's all been outsourced.
* Could be that most IT workers are tired of seeing executives get 20% raises and stock options year after year while we get flat 3% annual - or no raises at all.
* Could be that with all this automation we're still checking our Blackberries at 3 AM and rebooting servers. We're always on call (like doctors) but we don't paid like them.
* Could be that the "fun" of this industry left long ago. It's no longer hacking away at circuit boards. It's watching server farms blink.

* You want to know why employers are having a touch time retaining us? Could be that we're smart enough to realize the "traditional" career of an IT professional is all but gone and the only real career paths left are through management (hence folks skipping the certifications and going for the MBAs). Alternatively, consulting still proves lucrative. But to chide us because we know that the "IT professional" career is dying is silly.

Ask for too much? (3, Insightful)

Nikker (749551) | about 7 years ago | (#22009852)

I think just as it is the right of a company to set their prices I should be able to set mine. Maybe this manager doesn't have the resources to support the type of work he needs done. As a somewhat young worker in the IT / programming area this man proclaiming I am not worth what I am getting paid is outrageous. Especially now that retiring programmers and the legacy of code they leave behind. There will be fewer to replace them and more to do, these guys deserve to be able to set any price they please as far as they can find someone willing to pay it. So in short anyone who complains that the cost of what they need to function is too much I think they can't afford it to begin with.

newbies arent the problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 years ago | (#22009854)

Companies keep expecting to get more work done with less workers, which I think is the root of the problem. I am a techie that has been looking for a decent job for ages mostly because of this.

I'm sorry, but making 50% of what the person who is my boss is making, and doing 99% of the work dosent jive with me. My last job had some old suit in charge that knew nothing about the job, which ment I was basicly doing all of my work, then helping him with his. I told his boss how I felt about it and was basicly told to take a hike.

Seen it first hand (5, Insightful)

HangingChad (677530) | about 7 years ago | (#22009862)

Some of the younger programmers really don't want to work in an inflexible office environment. Absenteeism is pretty high where I am now, and that's a contract that pays pretty well. And they want their web mail, IM's and iPhones. Cut off internet services they want and you'll lose them.

They don't do office hours, don't like cubicles and want their toys. But if you can work with them on those issues, they are capable of producing some amazing work. The best project I ever worked we set up an office in the corner of a warehouse, walled it off with fence panels and white boards, collected old furniture and used shelf grates for desks. We had a basketball hoop, frig, microwave, satellite TV and our own DSL. Plus we'd stay late and play games after hours. No one quit on that project and we worked some long hours toward the end.

You don't really have a lot of options. You can deal with them or outsource to someplace that doesn't speak English as a native language and works in an office that's open in what's the middle of the night for you. They're not going to work in a cubicle so just deal with it and adapt. You're better off giving them an empty, unfinished room and give them money to punk it out to their own taste.

I can sympathize (1)

RogueWarrior65 (678876) | about 7 years ago | (#22009872)

Having endured "tech-support" for a few of my early career years I can understand why these guys want a few things. After a few panicky phone calls which often go like this "Hello?" "OHMYGOD!!! I CAN'T FIGURE THIS OUT!! I HAVE A DEADLINE!! YOU HAVE TO COME OVER!!" And so you schlep over to the moron's..(*cough*)... USER's cube and on their screen is displayed "Press OK to continue." "WHAT DO I DO?!??!" Ummm...gee...how about we try clicking the OK button? Bottom line especially in Fortune 500 companies is that people don't want to learn how to use the computer because they'd then be held responsible for it. But it's a double-edged sword too. They'd all beg and plead for more training. What they meant was they wanted training on the major applications they were using like Photoshop. What management gave them was "team training"...so they could bitch in unison.

Lack of knowledge (4, Insightful)

webmaster404 (1148909) | about 7 years ago | (#22009878)

I think that the root cause is lack of knowledge. In many pre-job situations, being able to install XP from scratch was a good feat, knowing your way around BASH was considered amazing and when you could set up a wireless router in 2 minutes people thought that you were a tech genius. Until you start working at a tech-job you don't know that the things that amazed your friends really made no difference in the real world. When you came out of college they knew Python and Perl along with C and Java and in the eyes of their friends they were 1337 Hax0rs, then they go get a tech job where either they don't code much, or everyone has a working knowledge of code. To some less-informed people, just using a non-MS OS such as Linux or knowing the command line on OS-X instantly made you some sort of star, you go to your job and everyone knows Linux and UNIX. Everyone thinks they have talent... Until they find someone who can do the exact same thing better then them.

its our generation's cash cow (1)

RyLaN (608672) | about 7 years ago | (#22009880)

I started college this fall at a small liberal arts school. As a kid I grew up putting together computers from spare parts, tinkering and ultimately trying to get a linux desktop to run at a reasonable rate. In that time I've watched the kernel grow up - my first Debian install barely had sound drivers and it took next to forever to get those pesky binary Nvidia modules to compile & load correctly. As the years went I became more interested in being able to do things with my computers rather than to them. I left highschool with an interest in biology and psychology, regardless of the fact that everyone knew me as the computer nerd.

Enter first semester Comp Sci. 101 (I thought it would be a good idea). I talked to several of my friends in the class and several of them pointed out to me that Comp Sci majors had a higher median salary out of school than biology research assistants. It absolutely boggled me that kids who had never explored a computer on their own were so confident that they could go out and make the big bucks in the real world.

I'm not sure where this rant is going - I feel like my generation (the Facebook generation? ugh.) of hackers view computers more as a functional tool than something to make work in of itself. I would rather do cool things with Blender than spend 2 hours hacking my kernel to make it run faster, for instance. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see fewer and fewer impassioned and technologically savy students get degrees in Computer Science itself rather than using self-taught computer science techniques in other research fields.

Same as it ever was (4, Insightful)

ucblockhead (63650) | about 7 years ago | (#22009884)

1988 wants its story back.

Seriously...the media trots out this "Younger generation wants more" story every 5-10 years. They certainly did twenty years ago, when I was one of those hard-to-please kids.

Nothing's changed. Employers pay crap wages at the entry level, and treat young kids like crap. Said young kids then hop jobs until they find something better. Same as it ever was. When I was that age, I quickly found that without experience, jobs I could get were pretty sucky. I also soon found that it was much easier to get a raise by job-hoping. So I spent the first ten years of my career moving around until I got the experience to get a good job.

The younger generation isn't any different. It's always like this, because entry level jobs tend to be the suckiest and companies that employ lots of entry level coders also tend to be the suckiest. If a company doesn't like their people switching jobs, they should pay more, and stop treating them like crap. Of course, so companies *do* do that. They're the ones people job hop to and then stop.

Re:Same as it ever was (1)

SirLurksAlot (1169039) | about 7 years ago | (#22010112)

Nothing's changed. Employers pay crap wages at the entry level, and treat young kids like crap. Said young kids then hop jobs until they find something better.

Except that there is a difference, there are a lot fewer entry level positions available to job hop to. Job hopping your way out of an entry level position nowadays is just about the same as shooting yourself in the foot.

In Australia (1)

ubrkl (310861) | about 7 years ago | (#22009892)

In Australia we have ads on tv for "IT Colleges" (term used very loosly) that say the average IT salary is $89,000. It's nowhere near that amount (closer to half) for your average programmer, lighly more for a good sysadmin.

I personally don't know why people want to climb that high that quickly, I look forward to honing my programming skills over the next 15-20 years (though I do work for an excellent employer, so that may help).

Unreasonable? (1)

teslatug (543527) | about 7 years ago | (#22009896)

If they couldn't get a job with those expectations, they wouldn't make those demands. What this means is that the level has gone up, but some employers don't want to accept it. If they want to hire some people in India for a third the wage, and not even a cubicle, they can do it. Otherwise, shut up, and pay your employees properly or fold up and wait for the next recession.

A Google experiment (-1, Offtopic)

Dr_SimonCPU (1181635) | about 7 years ago | (#22009926)

I wonder what would happen if I would post a completely off-topic Slashdot comment about me having died in a blogging accident.

Economics (1)

LaskoVortex (1153471) | about 7 years ago | (#22009938)

Does anyone complaining about "young IT professionals" understand that they have a high turnover rate because these professionals find opportunities elsewhere? If the high turnover rate affects the bottom line, then these executives need to stop bellyaching and adapt to the situation. Once someone has enough experience to move to a better job, it might be time to promote them or improve their working environment. At the very least, management must take into account the proper compensation for each employee they want to retain. Complaining about the ones who leave or making excuses that blame generational shortcomings is bad management practice.

Disillusioned? (1, Insightful)

GreyDuck (192463) | about 7 years ago | (#22009954)

"Young IT Workers Delusional, Hard To Retain"

There, fixed that for you...

Has nobody ever heard of "paying your dues" anymore?

A surprisingly good article... (1)

Alcoholic Dali (1024937) | about 7 years ago | (#22009968)

The article raises some very good points about the upbringing of individuals today, and how it is affecting their expectations of what a workplace is supposed to be like. I'd say this is heavily accentuated in the IT industry, given that most young people these days that are proficient with computers had parents that could afford them. That being the case, it is logical to assume that these people have had a mostly sane upbringing. As with everything, of course, there are exceptions.

Being a 21 year old working in a datacenter, I've already had my falsely high expectations thoroughly crushed by the reality of the situation. From my experienced, the reality is: unless you're extremely intelligent, talented, and well versed in whatever it is you're being paid to do, don't expect at all start treatment for being young and managing to get a job in IT. As the article pointed out, if your skill set is intermediate to advanced (with the top being: fucking brilliant), you're going to get the usual treatment everyone else has had: you find a place that you enjoy (this is tricky sometimes), and stick with it. While you're there, if at all possible, learn as much as your brain can soak up, and then spruce up the resume, and move on.

The true challenge that I've found is actually moving up within the same company. Most places love to tout how they hire and promote from within, but this is really a challenge. I've found it much easier to simply move onto another company with my acquired knowledge, and get my salary raises that way.

By this point, I'm rambling, but in the end, this is just the way it will be until we "millennials" become in charge of everything. Then, things might change. Or, we may just mature to the point where the cycle repeats itself with another younger generation working beneath us.

I fall under the "Millenial" category (2, Interesting)

SirLurksAlot (1169039) | about 7 years ago | (#22010026)

and the most depressing thing about entering the workforce for me is how hard it is to get your foot in the door anywhere. I have absolutely no problems starting at the bottom and working my way up, but there doesn't seem to be many places out there that are willing to hire straight out of the gate. Go do a search on Monster or Dice in any major metropolitan area (or anywhere else for that matter) for entry-level positions and I guarantee you won't find more than one to two positions, if that.

...22% said they struggle to find new qualified candidates.

I can certainly understand that, considering that the vast majority job postings consist of "Must have 5+ years of exp. with (extremely specific) technologies A, B, & C" as well as a wide swath of skills that are generally only picked up on the job. The companies that complain about not being able to find qualified candidates are often the same companies that outsource all of the entry-level jobs to India.

Job satisfaction and salary = retention (1)

SystematicPsycho (456042) | about 7 years ago | (#22010046)

From my experience retaining staff relates to job satisfaction and salary. Some people weigh more on salary than job satisfaction vice versa. Once job satisfaction begins to decline or never meets expectation or a rise in salary is outweighed by external factors (for example, they can get better elsewhere) then why would/should people stick around?

For a young IT professional to progress they need to make themselves known to management early, especially the senior ones and try get involved in as many things as possible, stay positive and give it some time. If that doesn't work then with their foot in the door - build skills, go on all the training possible, after a while if they're not getting job satisfaction or a reasonable salary jump ship. I always see hotshots out of uni believing they know everything. Watching their ego get popped is funny and admit I went through that stage and learned to play the game. I think they just need to understand that it was okay not to know everything and they weren't going to get their arse kicked in that early stage.

We had some 2nd year uni students in the UNIX area, all they did was change tapes, write shell scripts add/create users and passwords, was it no wonder why they were dissillusioned after a year. Regardless, they left to complete uni and try their luck elsewhere only to want to come back after that, I think salary was the driving factor. One of them that came back is basically running that area now.

Perception, especially to managers is everything. So what if you made the code go faster, if the people making the decisions or even your manager doesn't see the benefit you'll be lucky to get a "good work junior".

Retaining Employees (3, Interesting)

crosstax (1206716) | about 7 years ago | (#22010052)

My last employment was terminated in April of 2007 where I earned $35,000 cdn/year.

I was hired in December of 2006 to follow a software development plan to implement a visualization suite which allowed building developers to visualize housing before construction to show potential buyers, city planners, etc..

The software development was in Microsoft Visual C++ 2003 using OpenSceneGraph, XML based configuration and skinning, used OpenThreads and had TCP based network sessions for live or pre-recorded guided tours.

When I was hired, I replaced an intermediate software developer that could no longer get along with the director (immediate supervisor). There was a senior programmer above me but he left by mid-January of 2007, but before he did I was told the development team was going to be expanded to 3 full time developers. We had a graphics artist who used tools like 3D Studio Max to visualize the buildings from architectural blue-prints (or floor plans if you prefer).

Just after the senior programmer left, I started going through all of the modules to get an idea of what would need to be done to prepare the rendering engine for the development plan which had been presented to me. I found that whenever a HUD button was being pressed a new thread was being launched. In fact if you pressed the 'move forward' button twice quickly, the camera would jump back and forth between two positions because two threads were being launched without mutexes or any other safe-guard. I also noticed that nearly all class data members were public and being affected from other classes. And finally that the event processor had code that depended on the event be associated to a HUD button.

So I made recommendations to decouple the modules, fix the event model & processor as well as eliminate the excessive threading which was not making things faster as the unexperienced multi-threading programmer who implemented them had obviously assumed.

When I presented these recommendations to the director he laughed in my face and began yelling at me when I tried to explain why these changes would be necessary. So I backed off after the president of the company heard us out and decided to back the director who had been there longer than I.

At the beginning of April I was falling behind the schedule because of problems directly associated to the event model where the software development plan called for events to be generated by the camera walking through tagged plains. As mentioned, the event processor contained code which read fields from a HUD button which had to be present, so I was trying to emulate a button's state but the events would run in a continuous loop. While struggling with emulating the button states properly there was construction crew in our new office building during the day and my director was having (business?) friends in the office in the evening to drink wine and chat within earshot of my cubicle.

In my last few days of my employment, in early April of 2007 I started going into the office in the late afternoon to ensure at least 4 hours of my 8 hour shift had no distractions since my employers who told me when I was hired that my hours of work were flexible as long as they amounted to 8 hours a day. They decided to fire me without telling me why, though I expect it had to do with my decision to go in during the evening to avoid the distractions during the day. Up until that point I had never handed in any work late. Get this, they still had not hired any other developer, so I was the only programmer left when they terminated my employment.

I have been unemployed since April 2007 (we're now in January of 2008) despite looking for work at junior and intermediate levels, software development, testing, maintenance, help desk support, etc, etc..

In my years of IT work I've found management to be incompetant, not at technical skills but soft skills. It sounds as though the new generation of IT workers have been informed of what kind of crap happens in these workplaces and are trying to cash in before some management team desides to 'restructure' their department yet again in an attempt to figure out what's causing the lack of productivity. Hint: Try looking up instead of down. Technical gurus generally love their work but can be driven away from it when management's incompetance and abuse gets to a certain level.

http://3vista.com/ [3vista.com]
http://3vista.com/urbanimpact/setup.exe [3vista.com]

let's turn the stick around the other way (1)

quest(answer)ion (894426) | about 7 years ago | (#22010082)

as a "millenial" just starting out from college into IT, this article definitely hits on (or rather, somewhat near) an interesting dimension of my experience in the workforce. i'm confused, though, by the negative tone of TFA.

i'm currently working at a company where the turnover rate is rather incredibly high, with a huge percentage of temp/contract employees in the office (including myself). i am, modestly speaking, wicked overqualified for the phone-jockey work i'm doing now, and probably won't take any of the several relatively lucrative permanent positions i've been offered with the company.

thing is, i would have been perfectly happy to stick it out and rise in the company--as i'm sure many others would, too--if it weren't for one thing: the company is moving. they're relocating to a state where it's cheaper to operate, and probably dozens of younger techs like myself simply can't make that kind of shift. thus, half the office (most in that millenial age group) where i'm working has either fled, is fleeing, or will flee as the company relocates. turnover isn't a generational thing, it's just a result of this kind of fluidity in an industry, where everybody is outsourced to or contracted by somebody else at every level of the game.

that example aside, the fact remains that younger people in any industry are often in less secure/stable positions as far as their personal and professional lives, and have to hop between jobs, or have other commitments--like education--in ways that can interfere with keeping one job for a long time. an older worker is likely to be more settled and able to stay with one employer for a longer time. in IT, because there are so many opportunities available in the field. it's an employee's market, so job hopping is more easily do-able, and often even helps to build a diverse and attractive resume.

i'm sure the situation is rather different for people my age who come into the industry with jobs higher up the IT totem pole, where depth of experience means more than breadth, but down in the trenches i there's more to think about in terms of turnover among the young and fresh than just "the brats are spoiled".

i mean, yeah, we are spoiled, but we're not all verucca salt.

Hard to Retain? (1)

CanadaIsCold (1079483) | about 7 years ago | (#22010102)

If salary is making them hard to retain it means that other companies are hiring at that rate. Although the managers could be fighting something that is difficult to compete with. With the increase of published national average salaries for proffessions a lot of people expect to get the average rate. Two things count against them with this there is little differentiation between entry level and experienced with the same title.(I had senior strapped on the front of my title 10 days out of college) The other thing at play could be that regional salary rates are much different from the national average. Areas with generally higher cost of living tend to have generally higher salaries. This causes an increase in the national average. This kind of factor in salaries are rarely explained in articles that give salary estimates. These factors lead to expectations that may be higher than what the local market can bare. Some large companies have a tendency to price entry level salaries a little lower because they are expecting that the benefits of working(training, experience, stability) for them out way the lower salary. However as budgets tighten up as we approach a possible recession the benefits of working for them are reduced and there is bound to be a little friction at the lower than market salary.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?