Indian Software Firm Outsourcing Jobs To US 444
phobos13013 writes "NPR is reporting Indian software maker Wipro is outsourcing positions to a development office opening in Atlanta, Georgia. Although it sounds good for US job growth, the implication is that firms outside the US appear to be dominating more and more in the global economy, even from developing and underdeveloped regions of the world. Similarly, salaries of IT professionals world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to the large pool of qualified applicants in the market today."
qualified applicants? (Score:5, Funny)
qualified. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means
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But hey, with the way software gets crappier and crappier, I guess they are
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See, the word isn't misused, it's that the qualifications have little to do with skill or... anything besides politics and ignorance.
Or to test the software. (Score:2)
Re:qualified applicants? (Score:5, Funny)
Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Insightful)
As a relatively trivial example of where this goes wrong, refactoring such a variable can trivially result in the code lying to you about the type and scope of a variable. If you instead have a tool that will tell you the scope and type based on inspection, it will never lie to you.
Hungarian notation was a bad bad idea created by someone with a poor understanding of and lacking insight into the problem they were trying to solve.
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:4, Interesting)
I actually got into the habit of doing this by working with a blind co-worker who couldn't easily use most the tools that modern IDEs provide. I've actually found it improved my productivity to not have to rely on these kinds of tools and have all the information I need on the screen at one time.
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:4, Insightful)
Using crap like iplnvldakljdorSFName is just stupid (yes, I exaggerated that, but you get the point).
I use and like simple constructs. If it is a reference type object, I use a c for the class, cEmployee. Then during instantiation I just use whatever. If I want to be extra anal, I will use on o for the instantiated object name:
Honestly, Hungarian notation is just crap and is way outdated. I use simple notations. If it is an integer, I use i, iNumEmps. If it is a long I use l, lNumEmps. If it is a string object, I use s, sMyName. If it is any other object, well that is why and good IDE will list the type of the variable if you just hover for a second or so. I would rather see code that has a variable oFooBar and use "intellisense" to really see info about that object than to have a bunch of stupid prefixes to try to tell me about an object.
You have got it wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
What happens if you change the type of iNumEmps to long, or long long? You'd better hope you remember to change all of the relevant variable names throughout your code.
What you do offers you no benefits, but increases your maintenance burden. Stop doing it.
Hungarian Notation (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hungarian Notation (Score:5, Interesting)
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I wouldn't trust anyone who says "I don't want to write why he's wrong down". Esp. 'beginners'. Whatever you may think of him or what he says he's been doing this a long time. Most of the time what he says is at least worth listening to. What you do with that information from there is up to you.
Typing is easy. Shaping an effective retort is not.
Prove me wrong. Reply with five or more things that he's so obviously w
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I'm in complete agreement with everything you said, except that Hungarian notation is a good tool for what you want. It's a bad, bad tool
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Funny)
Dammit, Simonyi, no one asked you! Now just go away.
Re:Swedish code is still legible (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:qualified applicants? (Score:5, Interesting)
Experienced: Has solid proof of abilities, usually lack certifications as Experienced professionals look down upon the certifications as most are nothing more than proof you can memorize and take a test. Very few certifications hold merit with seasoned and experienced professionals. The ones that do are held in high regard.
Basically to tell the difference, the more certifications a person has the greater the possibility that they are simply a useless tool. Yes I have tested this in real life. when looking for a outsourced programming company the ones that all the clients have the MOST trouble with are the ones that touted all kinds of certifications the employees need. ALSO many times these companies will violate your terms on the contract. I have had to inform clients on several occasions to pay for the removal of OSS code or not release their product or release the source code in order to be compliant with the law. The Outsourced firm used GPL libraries and snippets, even left the original headers and comments in there. That was 3 years ago though when I was a Code Monkey in Corporate America. I am certain it has not gotten any better.
Hey, its not like.... (Score:5, Interesting)
We freely sent off our manufacturing, then our IT, and a good bit of agriculture. But thankfully, we still have a great service industry, lots of restaurants, etc. That'll keep us safe in times of financial/world troubles.
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Re:Hey, its not like.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hey, its not like.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, some are able to put away their pickaxe or lathe, take up Game Theory or Biochemistry books and courses, and grow into their new high-tech workplace. The others (in America) were better off before globalization moved in.
So called increases in productivity (Score:4, Interesting)
They send gadgets over seas to be assembled
Gadget is sent back to US company for adding to another gadget.
US company claims entire sequence as increase in US productivity.
Is the productivity increase really said to belong to the US company?
Many economists calculating GDP are beginning to question it.
Re:Hey, its not like.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're too expensive because the petrodollar tends to deflate. There's high demand for dollars to pay for oil, the world over. It makes Americans expensive.
The current world troubles are caused by the US interest in preventing the dollar from losing it's reserve status. Iraq, Iran, Saudi etc.
The current financial problems are caused by the dollar being a debt based currency. Debt increases exponentially, it requires exponentially increasing economy and additional loans to service the debt and continue growing. So liquidity is piled in exponentially, the debts grow accordingly. Eventually you have to get even those unable to pay involved, in order to continue the growth. The crash is inevitable, nothing can grow exponentially forever. However the longer the growth period the bigger the bump. In the past few years the central banks have piled in cash in order to glide over some of the smaller bumps, basically just lining up for a bigger crash later. It's more of an issue right now because the dollar has become less desirable internationally forcing up interest rates.
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I do agree with you about debt based money being bad, and basically your whole post, except that small point. Because in theory our money supply is slowly losing its connection with the real world. IE the connection to work done and actual physical objects made or removed from the ground.
the world market is irrational (Score:4, Interesting)
"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" - John Maynard Keynes.
I love this game! (Score:5, Funny)
Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
Re:I love this game! (Score:4, Insightful)
Foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the U.S.: bad for the U.S.
Doesn't say anything about labor prices either. If it was outsourced because they couldn't find enough cheap labor in India, that's *good* news for wages.
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You missed one... (Score:2)
We need more Engineers! (Score:5, Funny)
This week on Slashdot: Too many engineers! Salaries are falling!
Re:We need more Engineers! (Score:4, Insightful)
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My company, albeit not Microsoft or Google, hires a fraction of a percentage of the developers who apply... and we hire mainly out of college students so they aren't rejected for lack of experience. The truth of
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What is wrong with that?
I also want cheap cars, cheap clothes, cheap shoes, etc. I assume a majority of consumers are like me. Why shouldn't companies act in the same way?
If in the quest for cheap goods, I buy crappy ones, then I suffer. Similarly, if MS and IBM hire crappy coders just because they are cheap (somet
Re:We need more Engineers! (Score:5, Funny)
Or at least it will say that by the time you read this post.
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This is not a case of saying all news is bad news. These two items do not represent the only options. Both are flip-sides of America now being a bad place for capital invest
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Oh, you were talking about Americans? Tough luck, you reap what you sow.
Why is this so surprising? (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, isn't this exactly what everyone was telling us would eventually happen 8 years ago? So shouldn't we have been expecting it?
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Re:Why is this so surprising? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a natve US citizen, Caucasian male. I worked for Wipro [wipro.com] recently, and they are a very good company. They paid me competitive rates to what I would get from a US company, and had excellent benefits. Their US home office is in Sunnyvale California about two blocks from Google. If it wasn't for the fact that I was ready to get out of a job that had me living in airports and hotels, I would still be there today.
Most of what I did was to put an American face on what is basically an Indian company. Any major development was handed off to my counterparts in India where skilled labor is cheaper. I spent an enormous amount of time acting as an interpreter on conference calls for customers who could not understand English with an Indian accent. I also did a lot of requirements gathering because the language barrier made it a painful process for many of our customers. It really was a good job, and if you have the personality that will let you be a good traveling consultant I highly recommended Wipro.
Re:Why is this so surprising? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I haven't worked for Wipro. I *have* had them working for *me* and it was an unrepeatable experience -- scared, inexperienced, homesick, basically useless Indian guys supplied on a constantly revolving system, spending about a month on the project and then either disappearing or being rotated somewhere else. The absolutely classic bad side of outsourcing.
They're probably OK to work *for*, though, if you aren't one of those guys.
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So far there has been no flood of jobs back into the states, or even a trickle for that matter. Nor is there expected to be. As a matter of fact, it is just the opposite. The firm in question believes that many American companies still do not trust Indian programming services, and their solution is to open an American office and put an American face on their services. They are looking to build a "brand name", if you will.
Their stated end goal is to actually se
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Here we go again (Score:5, Funny)
<ballmer> (Score:2)
Developing! Developing!! Developing!!! Developing!!!!
</ballmer>
Large pools? (Score:2, Interesting)
/. must outsource editorial positions to India (Score:2, Redundant)
Stagnate, not stagnant.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with healthcare in the US (Score:2)
Also, if I have an insurance policy that the hospital accepts, the cost of a procedure is X$. If I don't have insurance, it'x 2X or even 3X$. Again, WTF?
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I certainly wouldn't disagree with this, but I'd like t
It reminds me of the dumb things people say (Score:5, Insightful)
The reality is that quality in cars is engineered from the earliest drawings. It goes into the manufacturing process to ensure there is only one correct way to assemble something. It comes about because management is committed to a quality product. Not just the words, but they take concrete steps to ensure what goes out the door is the best that they know how to build.
So the Japanese really were building better cars simply because the management of the company committed to building good cars. The proof was when Honda and Toyota moved manufacturing to the United States with no loss in quality. Nobody cares if their Accord is built in the U.S. or Japan, the cars are simply quality products.
To this day, the myth of the lazy American work persists, I assume partly because American cars for the most part still fall below Japanese standards. Now somehow the Union makes line workers stupid and lazy, which is ridiculous.
A large part of the reason unions arose in heavy industries was because management treated workers so poorly. That culture still exists in American automobile plants and leads to workers understand that the company will cheat them blind without a good contract. So the company treats people poorly and suffers the consequence in the factory.
It's like you punch somebody in the face, and then complain when they punch you back.
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It was only when a large American car manufacturer bought up the group I work for, that we saw a marked increase in defects, both from the suppliers being squeezed and on their own production line where workers were being squeezed.
I'd say my point is, unions aren't required for a decent wo
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Stated differently, satisfied workers make good products, efficiently.
Dilbert comic strip? (Score:4, Funny)
And everyone lies a bit about meeting the SLAs and so quotes cheaper prices.
Yeah, but what about quality? (Score:2)
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So does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)
Misleading summary (Score:5, Insightful)
TFA only mentions the Indian tech industry. I'm sure you could make a case for a world-wide effect from this, but the article doesn't mention it.
We'll See What Really Happens (Score:4, Informative)
Qualified applicants? (Score:2)
If by qualified, you mean "willing to undercut someone who can get the job done right", then sure. The fact remains that some companies will understand that to get the job done right will cost a fair salary.
Lots of people play football, too... but not everybody makes it to the NFL.
Which way is that pool exactly? (Score:2)
Knowing how to write C/C++/Java or anything else is not sufficient to be "qualified". In fact, I'd sooner hire someone who was bright, creative, well-versed in computer *science*, and doesn't know a compiled lang
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The problem is also one of education. Employers are looking for Java programmers with experience in J2EE, SOAP, XML, SOA, OMGWTFBBQ, an
It's not WHERE you outsource to (Score:4, Insightful)
My brother-in-law is a developer for a big fininacial services operation, and they attempted to outsource a project. Eventually management gave up and brought the work back to the home office, as the quality of code coming out of the outsourcing house was crap. Basically, a lot of the code they sent back was buggy or hard to integrate and had to be debugged and redone by the on-site developers.
But I'm not sure that that's an indication that the coders were poor (though that's a possibility). Basically, you're asking folks to communicate across both a language barrier and time difference that just makes it really difficult to do so with good results. Not impossible, perhaps, but difficult. Considering the difficulties that folk speaking the same primary language and sitting in the same room have communicating, I think it's safe to say very difficult.
Moving your "onshore outsourcing" to Georgia or wherever might address language issues, but the problems that come with integrating a remote team aren't going to go away.
Good! (Score:2)
Similarly, the price of computer hardware world-wide are projected to stagnate or possibly fall due to improvements in technology and an increase in the number of manufacturers. We all know that cannot be good for the industry.
When the cost of any product (or service) falls, more people/companies can use that product due to the reduced cost an
Depends on what you call qualified. (Score:2)
Don't you mean... (Score:2)
everything changes and people never get used (Score:2)
Not what you expect. (Score:4, Informative)
I've been part of small companies that hired a over seas company to to find out they paid a retainer for almost nothing. I've been part of a large company that spend a couple hundred million and got back a unusable piece of trash. The company was Isreali. Many heads rolled.
India. Outsource our health care problems (Score:4, Interesting)
We need internet FAST ENOUGH(which it isn't) that we can hire indian doctors for the poor.
Thats right. I am sure outsourcing to india would save the lower incomes a good penny.
Robotic Surgery with a doctor all the way in India or China?
Sounds good to me. I am sure the medical lobby will deem it too dangerous since they care for us so much.
They always have to find negative news (Score:2, Insightful)
First, the bad news was that jobs were being outsourced. Now the bad news is that the jobs are coming back to the US.
Its all fun and games until ... (Score:2)
wipro shampoo (Score:2)
Reasons for this (Score:5, Informative)
* US programmers are still much more expensive than programmers in other countries.
* Wipro has software houses in multiple countries around the world, their is their first Software house in the US though.
* US programmers know about the culture and idioms of this country, which is needed for some jobs.
* Any defense contracts must be worked on my US based developers.
Excellence is no longer the goal (LOL) (Score:2)
Businesses consider cost over quality 80% of the time.
So you are always losing excellence as they cut meat, defer upgrades, stifle PO's for required software and then get upset later when you do not achieve excellence.
The easy ride for businesses of cheap IT is ending in 2010. We are already losing people left and right at my corp because other local businesses are giving them 20% raises-- and we pay what I thought was darn good salaries (around six figures after bonus).
LIES LIES LIES!!! (Score:5, Informative)
The way this works is that Fortune 50 companies in Atlanta like Bell South, Coca-Cola, Delta, etc. have contracts with US based firms and employ US based resources. The movement is now to outsource to India. The problem is that they realize that they have to have someone in the United States to actually talk to the customer and deal with problems. These people will be the business analysts and the technical architects that feed the people off shore. While they say that these companies are creating jobs in the United States, the truth is that most of them will be landed resources also from India under H1B visa.
The result of this is that the 50 people in Atlanta that were working in IT are now replaced by 40 off shore people, 5 landed people in Atlanta, and 5 local people. I'm not judging whether it's good or bad or right or wrong, I'm just clarifying what is really happening because most people are way off on this one.
I'm a consultant and he's right! - Mod parent up! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of all the points I have seen on this thread, the above quote is the most legitimate. I'm a business IT consultant with a focus on custom application development. I'm one of those "technical architects" he speaks of. Our local teams are rather small with our full-time consultants to build the foundation of the applications and we then tap into a pool of contractors to do fill in the implementations as provided by the design me, my fellow consultants and business analysts construct.
One of the things the parent does overlook is that aside from experience and technical skill, clear communication skills are essential. I remember being told back in college in the late 90s I would need strong communication skills (granted English is my first language). I am not referring to only plain English but also an understanding of "International" English (to speak to our Indian associates and any other people who aren't familiar with localized metaphors) and business-speak. In addition, it takes a level of being assertive and proactive.
USA has low cost of living areas also (Score:5, Interesting)
Frankly, I can not understand why so many people trade both their time and preference to work on interesting projects for material stuff like frequently buying new cars, homes that are much larger than they really need, etc. I believe that this odd behavior is caused by a lifetime of subjecting oneself to advertising, but that is just a theory
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But, to your point: don't you think that support from family in studying and learning a pro-education attitude at home counts the most?
A bit personal, but: my Dad and his brother were the only 2 children of a very poor minister in Iowa. They always had food, but essentially zero money. Both kids learned to res
Non news (Score:3, Insightful)
So let me get this straight, a single company was found to open a US office, and the implication is that firms outside the US dominate the global economy ??
NPR should adjust the weight they contribute to a single anecdotal case I believe.
In a global economy you'll see Indian companies opening US offices and US companies opening offices in India. You'll see Japanese companies having US devisions that outgrow the Japanese ones and basically everything.
Borders don't mean jack anymore. You pick a place that has the people you want, the market you want and the taxes you want, and go for it.
Kids choices? (Score:3, Interesting)
Globalization is good (Score:3, Interesting)
Look for the Deliverator any minute. (Score:3, Funny)
Microcode? Check.
Now for high-speed pizza delivery...
whatever happened to training? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever happened to hiring someone who was inexperienced, but still sharp, and developing that person? This is how I got my start in 1990: someone who had seen my work took a chance that I'd do a good job supporting the company's LAN, even though I lacked experience, and hired me. With the exception of a few months during the bust years of 2001 and 2002, I've been working in the field ever since (in a variety of different positions, most recently QA testing).
One thing I noticed around the turn of the century was that there weren't any 20-somethings at work anymore. At age 34, I was far and away the youngest person at work. Where will the next generation of experienced old hands come from if not from within? At some point, all the experienced people will be too old to work any more, and then what will we do? The worst part of outsourcing is that we're outsourcing not just today's jobs, but the future of our talent pool.
((Let me cynically answer my first question ("Whatever happened to hiring
Qualified Applicants? (Score:3, Informative)
Hmmm
The explanation is well known to us software people. I remember back in the 1980s, when I ran across an ad for people with at least five years experience in a certain popular DB system. At the time, that DB system had been available from its vendor for almost 3 years.
These, a different variant of this approach is being used more and more. I've registered with a number of the well-known online job sites, and I get a dozen or so job descriptions every day. A number of my friends do this, too. It's quite rare to see a job description that any of us is qualified for. We get the descriptions because some fraction of the keywords match words in our resumes. However, each description has at least one requirement that I don't have. It seems fairly clear that for most of these, the probability is close to zero that a person exists anywhere on the planet with experience that matches every requirement. There is usually a list of other "nice to have" things, but those don't really matter if you don't have the required experiences.
We've tested a few of them that are sorta close by replying, with a more up-to-date resume, but typically there's no response at all. When we get a response, it's usually that we aren't qualified (but they'll keep our resumes in their DB in case an appropriate job comes up).
I have talked to a few HR people, to, of course, and they agree the approach is to write the job requirements to that nobody will actually be qualified. This gives them two options: One is that, if after a phone call they like you, they can say that they'll consider you although you're not qualified, but they may have trouble persuading their managers to pay you the stated rate due your lack of qualifications. So the intent is downward pressure on pay scales, because everyone is now "unqualified".
Alternatively, of course, this is done so that they can report that they couldn't find anyone in the country (the US in my case) that is qualified, so they'll just have to outsource the job. Or maybe look for a H1-B immigrant to hire as a trainee at a much lower salary. Or, of course, a student trainee or intern that can be hired for much less than even the immigrants.
Actually, I did have a 2-year job a few years ago, and interestingly it was a project for a UK firm that had outsourced the task to an American software company. But I got this job because I knew several of the people who owned the company. The team did include several H1-B people (and a couple of Canadians
Anyway, it doesn't seem like "globalization" is the whole explanation here. Rather, IT employees have learned how to classify everyone, even the most experienced, as unqualified for any current job. So you accept an entry-level wage, or you are dismissed as unqualified.
Re:Theories vs Facts (Score:4, Insightful)
Market theory is well tested and proven...
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Theories vs Facts (Score:5, Insightful)
You must be joking. Models in market theory are mostly oversimplified. Often to the extent that the results are useless for practical purposes.
Why do you think investments in stock markets are still a risky business? Because all the investors do not listen to the academia? If models and theory in physics would be that unreliable nuclear power plants would regularly go boom!
Re:Ah India. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Ah India. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ah India. (Score:4, Informative)
Totally off topic, but, for real: They are a huge US ally.
Or, as Scott Adams has put it.... (Score:5, Funny)
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As opposed to telling someone on the internet to use better language? Oh, the irony!
Already happened. (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/conte
"Moreover, you seem to think this is automatically bad. As a generally benign tax-paying and extremely low crime population"
You seem to be making a great deal of assumptions there that one might think betrays are certain corollary bias.